Upgrading from a Clarke CL300M – Follow Up

[Chris Edwards 1Participant @chrisedwards1]

Hi,

This is a follow up from my original post ‘Upgrading from a Clarke CL300M, where to go?’ (https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/topic/upgrading-from-a-clarke-cl300m-where-to-go/).

My trusty Clarke CL300M has finally died (quite spectacularly) and now it is time to upgrade.

I got some really useful help from my original post and have put together a selection of new machines ranging in both price and size.

1. AMABL210D

2. AMABL250-550 (DRO)

3. WM 250

4. Chester DB11VS

5. WM 280V

6. Chester Craftsman (DRO)

These machines roughly fall into 3 or so categories in terms of specifications / price; 1-3, 4-5 & 6.

I’m slightly struggling to understand the small differences in specifications (particularly the bed, compound and cross slide numbers) and whether they would make a real difference in day to day life. For instance would a difference of 45mm in bed width really make a huge difference and warrant paying more..?

I have attached a comparison chart of the technical data I’ve managed to get (apologies if it is incorrect) to hopefully show what I’m talking about.

My main concern is that apart from 1st and 6th machines the spindle bore size is still quite small. I realise that with a bigger, sturdier machine using a steady or tailstock mounted chuck handling larger pieces would be more successful than on my CL300M (which coincidentally was the final nail in it’s coffin) but I do think if I bought one of the smaller bore lathes would I one day regret not paying the extra to make life easier..?

Whichever machine I decide to get I’m going to ask to have a DRO attached as this has been really useful on my mill. Only two machines on my list come with this as standard and I am yet to talk to the sellers regarding the additional cost this will incur.

There are also some other points I wish to confirm such as the weight of the Chester Craftsman (DRO) being 450kg – is this including the metal stand?

As before all and any comments would be very welcome!!!

Thanks in advance, Chris.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Maybe also consider the SEIG C4 if you want something larger than the CL300M. I’m very happy with mine.

Neil

[Chris Edwards 1Participant @chrisedwards1]

Thanks Neil,

I decided not to include the SIEG C4 as it only has a 20mm spindle bore which is a little too small for my uses.

Cheers,

Chris.

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

If you are also thinking of getting a factory fited DRO you may want to consider going up to the WM290, advantage over the 280 and Chester 11 are that it has a 1.5″ bore and a quicker to change chuck, DRO a sstandard.

A lot will really depend on what use you want to put the machine to as to the size/length of material you are working with. I don’t find I need to get the steady out much with the 25mm bore in my WM280 and I get a fair bit of hobby use out of my lathe

A wider bed generally means a stiffer lathe, look at the ratio of ctr height to bed width as that is a better guide than just looking at the width on its own as that naturally increases as  the size of lathe goes up.

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Hi Chris,

I agree with Jason, have a look at the WM290, I have an old one (unfortunately not with Camlock) and it has worked without problems for a decade.

Thor

[Chris Edwards 1Participant @chrisedwards1]

Thanks Thor and Jason,

I had looked at the WM290 but as the spec was very close to the Chester Craftsman (DRO) and over a £1000 more expensive I decided against it.

Thanks for the advice regarding centre height / bed ratio, that helps a lot!

Cheers,

Chris.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Bed width makes a big difference, stiffer

Spindle bore, a big one means you just chuck a bar, no faf-fing about with cutting a workpiece, and less waste

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

Warco machine has VFD and 3-phase motor – no belt-changing. 2HP in place of 1.5HP. Higher top speed as well – although also slightly higher bottom speed. Also has D1-4 Camlock spindle nose, which is so much better for chuck-changing than the bolt-on-flange style, which the Chester machine seems to have (although not actually mentioned in its description).

Are these worth the additional cost? I suspect if you buy the Warco machine, you would forget the extra cost once you have used it a bit. But you do have to find the cost in the first place, and it’s always easier to spend someone else’s money…

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The Warco 250, 280 & 290machines have two speed ranges so there is some belt changing, low range if you are doing large items or want it slow for threading otherwise it can stay in high for most things.

[Chris Edwards 1Participant @chrisedwards1]

Thanks Ady, I was thinking that myself!

Yeah, I have the feeling I would regret not buying the biggest bore I could at some point…

I should say that I’m not a model engineer but make random stuff out of different sizes and materials so the more versatile the machine can be the easier my life will be!

Cheers, Chris.

[Chris Edwards 1Participant @chrisedwards1]

Thanks for this Jason and probably explains why the Craftsman has a lower top speed.

Cheers, Chris.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Camlock is an asset, but having lots of different chucks gets expensive. DRO’s could be added at a later date, and are not as essential as when used on a mill.

[Chris Edwards 1Participant @chrisedwards1]

Hi Nealeb,

Thanks for your input and high lighting the chuck change issue. It would be nice not have to faff around with nuts!

I am slightly confused regarding speeds / belt changing as JasonB has stated that the WM 290V would require a belt change (unless I misunderstood)..?

My dead CL300M it had two speed ranges but there was no belt changing involved.

Cheers, Chris.

 

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

To chuck another option into the mix – the Warco GH600

As the name suggests, this is a gear head machine with a 12 speed headstock covering a range between 45 & 2000 rpm.  4MT spindle internal taper & 26mm through the spindle. Maybe not as “covenient” as a variable speed machine, but (unlike variable speed machines)  it has the full 1 hp available at all speeds & much simpler switchgear. Starting (fwd & rev) & stopping the spindle is done with a lever on the saddle, so no reaching over the spindle to get to the controls. Also has a “proper” screwcutting gearbox for easy selection of most metric pitches & a wide selection of feedrates without having to swap gears. Some Imperial threads (but not all) can be cut using the supplied changewheel. I would not say that mine is any noisier than similar sized Harrison or Boxford gear head machines & belt drive variable speed machines will still have feed gear noise.

It does have the “bolt onto flange” method of fitting chucks but, as was suggested before I committed to getting mine, fitting studs to the chucks & using flanged nuts makes changing easier. There is a DRO version & and the stand is included as standard equipment, unlike the variable speed Warco offerings. All-up weight is around 270Kg on the stand. Bed width may be less than is quoted for some others, but what it may lack in width it more than makes up for in depth & cross ribbing – this is a substantial bed casting.

I am happy with mine – it was better than I was expecting (and that is “period” rather than “for the money” ) & I cannot fault the accuracy and setup-up out of the box.

Seems they are awaiting the next delivery ATM, but when in stock they seem to come on offer from time to time at quite a lot less than the listed price if you are not in a desperate hurry.

Nigel B.

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

The Craftsman is a bit of a monster at 5 ft long and half a ton – but if you have the space for it and are majoring on work > 3″ diameter and /or can live with the limited effective speed range, go for it!

The GH600 always struck me as a solid, compact machine. Always fancied one, could never justify it on the amount I do.

In the end, it is always a compromise.

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Your Clark did the speed changine by use of two gear ratios with plastic gears.

The 250/280/290 machines do similar with belts, remove end cover remove belt, reposition belt refit cover. 90% of the time you can probably leave it in the high range but if wanting to do a large diameter 150mm plus or threading upto a shoulder then the slower speeds and associated feed will really want a change to the lower ratio.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Actually the GH1230 looks a good buy with what they have off it at the moment. 3 axis DRO, D1-3 chuck mount, More screwcutting pitches than the GH600 all for less than a 290.

It is currently on their 24% off offer but won’t be there for long.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

Actually the GH1230 looks a good buy with what they have off it at the moment. 3 axis DRO, D1-3 chuck mount, More screwcutting pitches than the GH600 all for less than a 290.

It is currently on their 24% off offer but won’t be there for long.

Agreed GH1230 looks a good buy with a proper gearbox but lower top speed and maybe noisier than a 290V? I eventually learned to love mine but had to fit an electronic leadscrew as the lack of gear box was doing my head in. Very quiet and rarely need to use the lower speed range.

Tony

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

You hae the Craftsman MT3/5 the wrong way round. I don’t believe the price of No2.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The Amadeal price looks about right, compare it to a Chester DB8 which unlike the Amadeal includes 4-jaw, steadies and faceplate then there is not much in it as those items will add about £200 to the Amadeal price. The adverts may say high spec, low price but there are reasons why the price is low!

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

FWIW, My ETR BL12-24 is a Craftsman lookalike (As was the Warco BH600)

The 450 Kg probably includes the weight of the stand, and of the packaging. My BL12q-24 was quoted at 300KIg without the stand.

The wooden pallet was quite substantial, and the Faceplate, steadies and 4 jaw chuck are not light.

The spindle bore is 5MT and the machines came with a plain 5 – 3MT sleeve, allowing work to be passed through the headstock.

In standard form the motor to countershaft pulleys have two two sheaves.

The Countershaft to Spindle drive uses three sheave pulleys. Both drives use B section belts.

With the Back Gear, this gives a choice of 12 speeds from 50 to 1160 rpm

(The 8″ 4 jaw chuck spinning at 1160 rpm plus is quite a sight to witness!)

My machine actually has VFD so the 3 phase motor only uses one sheave, and theoretically it has only 6 speed ranges, but being modified by the VFD, has caused me no problems.

Being idle, most of the time, I tend to use mid speed and use the VFD to control speed.

The range of feeds and threads is quite wide, but, I made a 80T 1.25 Mod gear for the input to the gearbox, to halve the feed rate.  This necessitated repositioning the retaining stud for the gear cover, and new knob for the control “nut”.

My machine came with an extra 30T pinion, so the coarsest pitch that i have cut was 4 mm, using the 40T input gear, with back gear and minimum speed.

Possibly, by using the 30T as the input to the gearbox, and the standard 40T driver, the coarsest pitch could be 6 mm, but have yet to find a need for that.

Howard

[Chris Edwards 1Participant @chrisedwards1]

Hi Nigel,

Thanks for your post.

To be honest I had never considered a GH machine as I like the flexibility of the VS but your argument is very compelling!

The WARCO machines also seem to be getting a more positive response than the others. Although I should say that I do own an Amdeal mill (courtesy of another forum member) and it is solid and accurate!

Lots to think about!

[Martin of Wick]

On Martin of Wick Said:

 

In the end, it is always a compromise.

 

Very true!

The length isn’t a huge issue for me but the lower speed is a concern.

[Chris Edwards 1Participant @chrisedwards1]

Thanks for explaining this! Those plastic gears and the useless timing belt isn’t something I shall miss, although I was probably asking too much of the poor machine.

[Chris Edwards 1Participant @chrisedwards1]

Thanks for the heads up!

As I’ve only ever worked on a VS lathe is there a lot to learn regarding a GH lathe?

[Author]

Posts