Update Smart Meter

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I have a Dutch friend who is an engine specialist at the European patents office. He specialises in automotive engines. So he knows a touch more about such things than the general public. His take on hybrids is that they are a joke and he is in a much better position to judge than anyone here on the forum.

I run a 2007 2.0 Mondeo Estate. My fuel consumption is slightly over 60 mpg. As the car is virtually worthless, I can see absolutely no reason to buy an expensive electric car to replace it.

Andrew.

[Paul RhodesParticipant @paulrhodes20292]

“Free” charging stations? Surely not accurate as someone has to pay for them.

Am all for EVs or at least the choice. I do resent the state subsidy in purchase and running. I also question what will happen to the Tesla batteries in 10-12 years when their toxic batteries need replacing at a cost of around £ 22,000 at todays rates.

By all means redistribute energy consumption per smart meters. Using EV batteries as storage devices seems eminently sensible . Of course the devil is in the details as who reimburses the EV owner if his EV is regularly drained ,needing recharging thereby shortening the battery life. In all conscience the supplemented smart meter implementation has produced little else save removing the “burden” of reading your own meter.

An earlier poster is right that old meters will be replaced if an individual sees a financial benefit.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Thanks for the answers.

The thing that made me ask the question is that the electricity they generate seems to come exclusively from burning fossil fuels.

It feels contradictory, considering the current narrative.

Martin.

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 23/08/2022 13:23:43:

I run a 2007 2.0 Mondeo Estate. My fuel consumption is slightly over 60 mpg. As the car is virtually worthless, I can see absolutely no reason to buy an expensive electric car to replace it.

Andrew.

I think that is how a lot of people feel. Our current car will probably out last me, so why should we change. We bought it just prior to the first lockdown. What with my shielding and being confined to barracks I have only filled it up 10 times in that time, and each time I need to take out another mortgage.

From what I have seen in reports by the motoring journalists the infra-structure as regards charging etc is not anywhere near ready. Those sites which are installed seldom work correctly.

I did have a quiet chuckle to myself last night when I saw an advert to "subscribe" to an electric vehicle. I think they have finally woke up to the fact that these cars are just too expensive. Reminds me of the television rental companies of my youth when TV's were similarly expensive compared to wages.

To get back to KWIL's original post. My thoughts went back to my Grandparents evenings sat in front of the coal fire, no lights on, and listening to the battery powered radio. We have moved on 70 plus years since then, but we certainly have not progressed very far really, if the energy companies want us to return to this way of life. Looks like we will have to sink a shaft in the back garden and tap into the Forest of Dean's coal reserves.

One has to ask what will happen to peak viewing on the TV? The Soap Opera ratings will soon be a thing of the past.

Regards

Gray,

[File HandleParticipant @filehandle]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 23/08/2022 12:01:44:

Apart from the issues fixed as mentioned. As far as efficiency is concerned there will be an RPM where the IC engine is at its max efficiency. If the vehicle was designed to run at this constant rate then as the rotary to electrical conversion efficiency will be high the energy extracted from the fuel will be better than the IC engine alone. Typically battery sizes for hybrids do not require such high capacity as EV's so are lighter and as has been said harvesting energy from regenerative breaking pushes the efficiency even higher. So it helps with the urban pollution problem and uses less fuel.(The Yaris gets 60mpg compared to my fiesta at 50mpg) Apart from that yes you are right it solves nothing.

regards Martin

My Honda Jazz averages pretty close to 60mpg. once warm the engine switches off when not moving. with the price differential, i would want a hybrid to do much better than that.
The future issue will be the secondhand value of EV cars. Will fitting a new battery make a secondhand one nearly as good as new as there are fewer moving parts, or will replacement battery cost mean that they become scrap when the battery dies.
It will be interesting to see how the future pans out in terms of cars and powering our homes. I suspect that there will be many who can just about afford to run an IC car but wont be able to afford the switch to EVs. Equally a new gas boiler might cost £3000, but switching to a heat pump likely to be 10 times that when the need for extra radiators and beefed up insulation is factored in.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by blowlamp on 23/08/2022 13:52:59:

Thanks for the answers.

The thing that made me ask the question is that the electricity they generate seems to come exclusively from burning fossil fuels.

It feels contradictory, considering the current narrative.

Martin.

Not contradictory. Hybrids are less wasteful compared with a pure IC car. Far from perfect if the goal is to eliminate burning oil entirely but no-one said they would do that.

All hybrids do is get better MPG in average road conditions than an ordinary IC engine, surely a good thing as far as it goes?

They are a stepping stone.

The goal is an affordable electric car with a range of 300 miles that can be recharged in less than 10 minutes with British renewable energy. The alternative is a vehicle relying on imported oil that's going to get expensive over the next 10 years, which makes people ill and contributes to global warming.

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by blowlamp on 23/08/2022 13:52:59:

Thanks for the answers.

The thing that made me ask the question is that the electricity they generate seems to come exclusively from burning fossil fuels.

It feels contradictory, considering the current narrative.

Martin.

Although the momentum to get upto speed may use the same amount of fossile fuel your average IC engined car will waste that energy as it slows down again. A Hybrid or full EV will recoupe that energy to generate electricity to put back into the battery so some generating is not directly from burning fuel.

SOD mentioned that a hybrid will turn the engine off when stationary, well they also do that when on the move, at least the Kia that I get to drive regularly does. for example if going down a slight incline or approaching a roundabout or traffic lights when you would be coasting with your foot off the throttle in an IC car the HEV will turn the engine off. The battery will take care of things like keeping the power steering and vacuum assist going so you are actually covering miles with no fuel being burnt and little drain on the battery which is probably being topped up anyway by regenarrative. It's quite odd at first when things go silent and the rev counter drops to zero but you soon get used to it and can hardly tell when the engine kicks back in.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 23/08/2022 13:23:43:

…

I run a 2007 2.0 Mondeo Estate. My fuel consumption is slightly over 60 mpg. As the car is virtually worthless, I can see absolutely no reason to buy an expensive electric car to replace it.

Andrew.

Neither would I. But the Mondeo is already 15 years old and won't last forever. The average life of a UK car is about 12years, and the clock is ticking. When the time comes to replace it, and let's hope it lasts another 15 years, there will be a reality check. Although I expect there will still be a fair number of IC cars about in 2035, it's unlikely they will be first choice for a new car.

As a thought experiment, how high could the cost of a litre of petrol rise before we change our behaviour?

It's already happening to friends and family. A friend who runs a white van for his business mentioned it's now cheaper to pay Bath's £9per day congestion charge, than it is to loop around the clean air zone when going from job to job. Last year it was cheaper to loop.

As I'm low mileage and mildly well-off, I could pay up to about £10 per litre before having to think, though that's assuming other prices stay still, which they aren't. My son and daughter would not be able to sustain anything like that: they both live on a budget, and are both delighted the price of fuel didn't go past £2/litre and is dropping back. But sooner or later it will. UK inflation is now over 10% per annum…

Dave

 

 

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 23/08/2022 14:52:56

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Have just posted a letter to a national newspaper asking why, when Britain only draws about 4% of it gas from Russia are the energy prices skyrocketing?

Is it because the utility suppliers to Britain are continental owned and we are expected to subsidise their much greater reliance on Russian energy?

Also, why does the standing charge need to rise at such an astronomic rate. The static installation needs no more maintenance now than it did a year ago!

The less that energy that you use, the greater the proportion of the bill is made up by the standing charge.

It smacks of paying more and more for less and less.

Sounds like one of our suppliers when I was at work. The only figure that ever mattered to them was on the bottom line, and that was NEVER going to decrease unless we cancelled every single order, which we could not do since they were vital components..

So we found another supplier, at a lower price, and for some offerings, used their products, which in some respects were superior.

It also enabled us to sell into another marketplace so we smiled en route to the bank..

Buying a genset is not on. Capital input, high fuel prices (even if you can avoid the punitive road fuel duty ) and the environmental effect are against it. Plus the neighbours might complain about the noise!

And living in the flatlands, we cannot copy what many Swedes do and install a mini hydro-electric generator in a local waterfall.

The best that we can do in terms of transport for just two us are small cars, where despite the small fuel tank, we can cover nearly 500 miles on a tankful of petrol. It would need to be an expensive EV to do my normal 280 mile round trip without a fairly lengthy stop for a recharge on on an already 3 hour each way journey.

Life is tough. More and thicker woolies for winter, seems to be the way.

Howard

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

Howard

The high increase in the standing charge is mainly because of the way costs are allocated when a supplier fails. To avoid customers losing supply, they are transferred to another supplier know as the supplier of last resort process. The costs involved are passed onto all of us via an increase in the standing charge. This is a process defined by Ofgem. They are consulting on whether this should be changed – see attached . **LINK**

So everyone pays for those businesses that presumably were trying to get market share by selling at lower costs than they could sustain. Indirectly this means that we have all subsidised those that went with a cheap supplier.

Stuart

Edited By Stuart Smith 5 on 23/08/2022 18:38:38

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Posted by Stuart Smith 5 on 23/08/2022 18:37:54:

…….Indirectly this means that we have all subsidised those that went with a cheap supplier.

Ain't that always the way? Surely those customers could be identified and charged proportionately more to recoup the money – it wouldn't be popular with them, but it'd make my day a lot better…

Rob

[Robin HardyParticipant @robinhardy]

Hi have used soft hybrids for 8 years and they do work if you are a driver not in a mad rush and use the regeneration system to put charge back in the battery, however if your pounding motorways all day then there a waste. I'm in and out of Birmingham most days so good in queues so Pershore Road is a breeze.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 23/08/2022 18:09:21:

Have just posted a letter to a national newspaper asking why, when Britain only draws about 4% of it gas from Russia are the energy prices skyrocketing?

Is it because the utility suppliers to Britain are continental owned and we are expected to subsidise their much greater reliance on Russian energy?

Also, why does the standing charge need to rise at such an astronomic rate. The static installation needs no more maintenance now than it did a year ago!

…

Well in a sense we've walked into a perfect storm and there's a feeling the wheels are coming off.

• For as long as I can remember British Utilities have underinvested in infrastructure. Before and after privatisation. Costs were kept down in the past and a now lot of expensive infrastructure work needs to be done. Sewage at Bexhill-on-Sea etc. Chickens coming home to roost.
• The bounce back from COVID has created a global shortage of energy and materials. Demand exceeds supply, so prices rise. Worldwide.
• Brexit is a work in progress. Thus far I've not identified any economic benefits, but it's caused a fair amount of bother with trade and employment, for example the departure of cheap European labour created shortages and forced UK wages up in several sectors that remain understaffed. Difficult to work out now what's due to Brexit and other causes, but the last figure I saw suggested Brexit reduced the UK economy by about 2%. It's pushed up prices.
• The War in Ukraine! More chickens coming home to roost. Mr Putin was allowed to get away with a series of escalating anti-western adventures that the West chose to tolerant, very unwisely in my view. Now he's going to have to be stopped, and it's going to hurt. The war is seriously disrupting trade and energy supply in Europe, causing more shortages and price rises, and it will suck more money supporting Ukraine and her allies. A second not so cold-war has started.

UK gas and oil is sold on the international market and can't be Nationalised without breaching contracts and causing further ructions. This country depends on imports and would suffer if our trade partners responded in kind. Big C Conservatives know that selling UK Oil and Gas abroad at the present high prices brings money into the country, and the benefit trickles down to poor folk.

The Boomer generation may have had it too easy for too long. Have we been seduced into a sense of entitlement that can't be supported? Weak, selfish and indecisive? Denying problems rather than tackling them, and looking the other way whenever our representatives foul up?

I suggest it's time to buckle down and help, not to look for easy answers. Apart from COVID, these issues should all have been addressed in the past. As it is, the consequences have arrived together and we're all in choppy water. As they used to tell conscripts, if you don't have a sense of humour you shouldn't have joined.

Dave

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

As SOD said gas and oil prices are not in our control, I can't believe people don't realise that as the media has been harping on about it for months now. There are no quick fixes this time guys and a little cliche from the forces 'fail to plan, plan to fail', governments of all colours have failed to plan for energy security over the last say 25 years so we are now deep in the mire at the mercy of every tin pot supplier of gas/oil etc.

Tony

[MacolmParticipant @macolm]

UK electricity prices are made considerably worse by the concocted “market”. This was designed when there was surplus fossil fuel capacity and to give renewables an advantage. Now that dispatchable capacity only just covers demand, the market has become unstable. See the graphs extracted from National Grid. Some of the time generators are prepared to supply at 26p per unit, but it spikes to 74p per unit for no obvious cause.

 

Edited By Macolm on 23/08/2022 21:32:10

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

The renewable and nuclear guys get the same price for generation as gas, they must be making a fortune

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

Duncan

Where do you get that information from?

Stuart

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

SOD, you say world prices are driving the increase, yet our friend across the pond is not suffering the same percentage rise? How is the American / North American market insulating itself?

Given that we assume the cost of extracting North Sea gas has not risen dramatically then surely legislation can be passed that gas used in the domestic market must be sold at a reasonable profit and directed at the domestic market with a punitive export tariff applied if it is sold abroad? The extraction companies may well be investing in its extraction but it is a uk resource and therefore should be used to support the UK first?

Paul.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by duncan webster on 23/08/2022 22:59:24:

The renewable and nuclear guys get the same price for generation as gas, they must be making a fortune

Last time I spoke to Scottish Power their wind energy capacity was being sold at around 7p /kWh even at that ROI for a wind farm is a little over 5 years.

Paul.

[MacolmParticipant @macolm]

See

**LINK**

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 24/08/2022 00:49:53:

SOD, you say world prices are driving the increase, yet our friend across the pond is not suffering the same percentage rise? How is the American / North American market insulating itself?

Given that we assume the cost of extracting North Sea gas has not risen dramatically then surely legislation can be passed that gas used in the domestic market must be sold at a reasonable profit and directed at the domestic market with a punitive export tariff applied if it is sold abroad? The extraction companies may well be investing in its extraction but it is a uk resource and therefore should be used to support the UK first?

Paul.

The USA has the advantage of being a large single internal market whereas the UK has to trade across a multitude of borders. Trading internationally from a small base makes us more vulnerable to global supply and demand but the US is far from immune. US and UK inflation are both similarly too high at the moment.

Not sure what US petrol prices are doing at the moment, but in March the Independent reported they reached an all time high, $4.173 per US gallon. Fuel is partly cheaper in the US due to economies of scale, but it's also less taxed than most of the world. UK government could reduce the cost of fuel at the pump by changing taxation, but it's unlikely because the money is needed to pay other bills like winter fuel subsidies…

There are serious problems with a UK first fuel policy. Of course the UK could seize control, but:

• The State grabbing assets is Communism, a way of conducting business incompatible with Conservative free-market, laissez-faire economics. In this the Conservatives are broadly supported by the Labour Party who abandoned state ownership as a goal in 1995.
• Breaking international contracts and imposing tariffs is certain to trigger an unfriendly response. For example a country deprived of UK gas might retaliate by hiking the cost of food they sell to the UK. And imposing self-serving tariffs has a dreadful record historically. It's because the side-effects often outweigh the benefits by triggering counter-measures liable to spiral into a trade-war or worse. Vital to consider how trade partners will respond before taking action because, unless they are very weak, it's unlikely they will take it lying down. It's an excellent way of turning good friends into enemies, and enemies into bad enemies.
• In the conflict with Russia, is it in the UK's best interest to walk away and let him take over Ukraine so that individual fuel bills can be artificially kept low for a while, or is it in the UK's best interest to tackle a dangerous threat to the West? State sponsored Russian TV said their tanks won't stop until they get to Stonehenge Dangerous propaganda, but some Russians believe it's right and proper.

I see the energy game as being more like chess than squash. In squash the emphasis is on speed and it's difficult to predict what will happen more than a move or two in advance. Chess is won by planning several moves in advance by considering a multitude of possibilities. In chess, making obvious easy winning moves rarely ends well unless the other player is hopelessly inexperienced. Any half-decent opponent will exploit the positional weaknesses caused by careless captures, and slaughter the obvious player.

Economics and trade are more like chess than squash. Before making a move it's best to the consider the consequences before than jumping to the obvious benefit. If the UK does 'A', how will the rest of the world respond, and how will the UK deal with that? Grabbing fossil fuels would only be the first move, and what happens next matters too.

Dave

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Some, on here, need to look up “contract for difference” which has been in operation for most of the last decade.

Renewable energy providers will likely be paying, to the government, any excess selling income above and beyond their actual contract. Look it up.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by blowlamp on 24/08/2022 12:11:14:

If "Mr Putin" has been such an obvious bastard for all these years, it makes me wonder how & why all our glorious leaders got into bed with him in the the first place. Maybe he had reasonably priced energy to sell us?

The notion that Russia is run by mad men shows how ill-informed some people are and that they've never listened to the words from the horse's mouth.

Russia taking Stonhenge? … We need a break from this stupid talk.

 

Fuel's probably cheaper for Americans because they're now they're gearing up to supply us with that horrible fossil fuel we sanctioned ourselves from using which was previously got from Russia – more economies of scale it seems.

 

 

Martin..

 

Edited By blowlamp on 24/08/2022 12:27:38

Exactly right. Mr Putin has been cosied up to because he sells gas and fuel. Needs must when the devil drives.

In respect of what's going on in Russia who is 'the horse's mouth' and why are they more trustworthy than other sources?

The threat that Russian Tanks wouldn't stop until they got to Stonehenge was made! Propaganda to whip up enthusiasm at home of course, but it was said. And they did send tanks into Ukraine. Plus other offences from Syria via the Crimea.

Fuel cheaper in the US because they're gearing up to use coal? Evidence please! Does the plant needed to make petrol from coal exist in the US? The technology exists but its expensive compared with refining crude oil and I don't know of anyone using it at the moment. Hard to believe it makes any difference in the US – perhaps in 5 years.

Derek Hall said "We need to wean ourselves off fuel from despotic and lying regimes. It will be painful in the short term but it has to change", and Martin asked: Name the ones we could move to, please.

The answer is ourselves! One of the advantages of renewable energy is that rather a lot of it can be home-grown. It's only fossil fuels that call for unhealthy alliances. Daft to depend on them if they can be avoided.

Has a key point been missed? Society doesn't want fossil fuels, it wants energy. Perfect sense to make use of other energy sources whenever we can. Unless fossil fuels are a sacred cow!

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 24/08/2022 17:43:20

[Paul RhodesParticipant @paulrhodes20292]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 24/08/2022 17:42:43:

Posted by blowlamp on 24/08/2022 12:11:14:

term but it has to change", and Martin asked: Name the ones we could move to, please.

One of the advantages of renewable energy is that rather a lot of it can be home-grown.

Has a key point been missed? Society doesn't want fossil fuels, it wants energy. Perfect sense to make use of other energy sources whenever we can. Unless fossil fuels are a sacred cow!

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 24/08/2022 17:43:20

Dave,

May I correct your last paragraph? Society wants reliable and cheap energy.

I would also observe that while much can be home grown, these lofty ideal often founder when you have to live next to wind and solar farms. In addition to the geographical reality that most of the prime site are already in use due to the low hanging fruit principle..

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Silly Old Duffer is right! It's up to us (and our engineers) to come up with combinations of other methods of energy rather than oil and gas…

The river Severn has the second highest tidal range in the world….maybe it time to look again at harnessing this.

Around me there is huge solar farm planned, not ideal to look out over but perhaps better that than a gas fired power station.

All I know is that this situation was coming and too many (mainly politicians) buried their heads in the sand.

Just to be clear I am not going down the global warming CO2 thing again, it's the fuel we obtain from unfriendly, despotic, unreliable countries that we need to cut down, reduce and eventually stop.

As an example of no long term planning I am led to believe that Taiwan is a world leader and maker of "chips" the electronic sort. China has been making threats for years about invading Taiwan, has any leader thought about this and built some chip foundries in other Countries just in case???….no of course not!

Regards

Derek

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