Update Smart Meter

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Ian McVickers on 22/08/2022 15:27:01:

My EV is charged at cheap rate between 1 and 5am. Most people who have Evs will probably have cheap rate charging at home so wont be charging at evening times I hope.

Speaking as a Refusenik Denier Conspiracy Theorist, I'd like to say that you will be joined between 1 and 5am by everyone else wanting to charge their EV, wash their clothes and wash their dishes.

I don't think the power network is up to the job.

Martin.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by blowlamp on 22/08/2022 14:32:26:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 22/08/2022 14:11:02:

Posted by blowlamp on 22/08/2022 12:28:04:

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Dave.

Is there enough generating capacity to replace what is being removed to satisfy this "need" you speak of? If not, then what's the upshot for the average citizen?

Martin.

 

No there isn't. There's an urgent need to get on rebalancing the system. People denying the need to fix the problem are in the majority and the delays they cause will result in a hard-landing. Waiting for the negative effects to become bleeding obvious before acting is a recipe for disaster.

Deniers expect humanity can carry on forever just as we are. Sadly the world has never worked like that. Nothing lasts. Populations always face new challenges. Therefore it's essential to manage problems if and when they arise, preferably as soon as the issue becomes clear.

For political reasons Mr Putin is using the gas shortages caused by post-COVID recovery to force his will on the West. Like it or not we're being made to pay more for gas. Mr P expects the greedy West to crack before he does and he might be on a winner because so many in the West believe themselves entitled to an easy rich lifestyle.

However, the present shortages aren't due to gas fields running dry, they're only due to demand exceeding supply. But it's a taste of what the near future will bring in spades. Demand permanently exceeding falling supply will cause much worse trouble than we're seeing now. The outlook over the next 50 years is grim.

There is an alternative: whilst renewable energy isn't as reliable as burning fossil fuels, it's cheap, clean, and local. Ask this: what would our position be if renewables weren't already providing about 30% of the UKs electricity. Did denying the need for green energy over the last 30 years help or hinder the UK's energy position today?

I suggest denial causes nothing but trouble, a time-waster with no benefit in it.

How about fixing problems rather than hoping against hope that they don't exist?

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 22/08/2022 17:35:07

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

I used to work for the local electricity network operator.

When smart meters were first being discussed, one of the senior managers came back from a briefing (I think with Ofgem and network operators). A few of the things I remember :

Installation of new gas boilers would be banned and heat pumps used instead.

Smart meters would be used to interact with EV chargers and domestic appliances to in effect share out the capacity available on the network at any particular time. And also variable pricing to go with this.

Smart meters would be used to monitor the voltage and report if the supply went off. This could be integrated into the network management computer systems to identify where faults on the network were.

I retired 6 years ago but it seems like at least some of these are now becoming reality.

Stuart

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

I think it would be a reasonable assumption to expect EV's to become very smart at hoovering up low demand power in the future even to the extent of waiting around for a cheap rate. In addition we should expect the option of connected EV's to act as battery back up in times of high demand and the user get paid for the service. Whoever said the supply was not up to it was bang on the money which is why intelligent solutions seek to even out demand. I know linear TV is going out of fasion but a simple staggering of bradcast times for Corrie would stop all the kettles being turned on at once. I say this just as an example.

regards Martin

[File HandleParticipant @filehandle]

Posted by Stuart Smith 5 on 22/08/2022 17:40:56:

 

 

Installation of new gas boilers would be banned and heat pumps used instead.

Stuart

 

Except that as I understand it for most not well insulated home they don't provide sufficient heat.
One way of balancing out the electricity supply would be to electrolyse water to produce hydrogen during times of low demand and use this as a form of heating. However, the capacity to produce AND TRANSMIT electricity needs to be greatly increased if we are to meet the demand for switching to electricity. it was a mistake in the past not to build nuclear power stations.

Edited By Keith Wyles on 22/08/2022 18:47:47

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Posted by Paul Rhodes on 22/08/2022 15:13:34:

Mike a small pedantic note. "Refuseniks" were denied permission to leave Russia ( from the Russian "otkaznik" IIRC). Your use implies people refusing to adopt which is the reverse sense of the original use.

Paul I didn’t realise the origin of refusenik but having now looked it up you are correct. It also seems that usage has now included the way in which I used it so although the original definition would make my use nonsensical the ever changing English language has also made my use acceptable.

Mike

[Anonymous]

As noted by the OP we already have this in Ontario. I don't find it a great big problem generally. The biggest power users are laundry (dryer) and stove. Both 230V because of the power they use.

Laundry we do on the weekend (cheapest rate) in any case because we don't want to be quite so out-and-about with everyone and his dog off work.

The bigger problem is cooking …. I don't want to plan my mealtimes around someone's idea of fair rate times. 5-7 pm is mid peak rates and we just suck them up.

Heating is by gas furnace/ forced air. So we have whatever electricity the fan consumes throughout the day. To some extent we can program it so that the very high rates are avoided but it's marginal at best.

My own particular time-of-use rates are here if interested.

[Ian McVickersParticipant @ianmcvickers56553]

The eventual demand for more EV charging will put alot more demand on the grid. Thats not really in question and I cant see any major upgrades getting done soon. I use one of the Chargeplace Scotland chargers once a week to get some free power but have no idea how long that will last.

Some of the smart EV chargers allow charging direct from solar if there is enough energy but this wont really make that much of a difference here in sunny Scotland.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Does anyone know what problem a self-charging hybrid fixes?

Martin.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by blowlamp on 22/08/2022 19:56:14:

Does anyone know what problem a self-charging hybrid fixes?

 

Martin.

Better economy than a non hybrid as they recover energy that would otherwise be wasted by using things like regenarative braking. So less fuel burnt for the same given milage.

As they also have an IC engine you still get the range if needed which is one thing the anti electric car people sight as a disadvantage of EVs

Edited By JasonB on 22/08/2022 20:14:48

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

I know the peasants[US] have always been shafted but this energy price hike has gone to another level of criminality! There seems no way realistically to extract ourselves out of this pile of s**t which we have constructed for ourselves and the latest informed opinion is that IF the government helps out people to pay their bills the cost of energy will just keep rising, think on that tonight as you drift off to sleep.

Tony

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

We get our gas and electricity via British Gas and have two "smart" meters. Not quite so smart when I have to take manual readings from both over the last 18 months.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by Peter Greene 🇨🇦 on 22/08/2022 19:24:47:

My own particular time-of-use rates are here if interested.

Anyone in the UK who hasn't already looked at Peter's rates is advised to sit down first. Also warn your wife that after you have done crying you may be arranging to emigrate.
Interesting that the peak rate is in the middle of the day (office/industry demand?) so could be alleviated with a big push to solar, though at those prices little incentive to invest.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by Bazyle on 22/08/2022 23:35:42:

Posted by Peter Greene 🇨🇦 on 22/08/2022 19:24:47:

My own particular time-of-use rates are here if interested.

Anyone in the UK who hasn't already looked at Peter's rates is advised to sit down first. Also warn your wife that after you have done crying you may be arranging to emigrate.
Interesting that the peak rate is in the middle of the day (office/industry demand?) so could be alleviated with a big push to solar, though at those prices little incentive to invest.

That is less than 1/3 of my current peak rate – on an economy 7 type deal we pay £0.34 /kWh. So much for global parity set by supply and demand lol.

Paul.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 23/08/2022 00:33:54:

Anyone in the UK who hasn't already looked at Peter's rates is advised to sit down first. Also warn your wife that after you have done crying you may be arranging to emigrate.

 

I'm not sure (i.e I don't know) how it's billed in the UK but I should point out that those rates are for the electricity alone. There are a bunch of other charges on top of that: Delivery; Regulatory; Sales-Tax. Fairness prompts me to add that there is (currently) an Ontario Government Electricity Rebate.

For example, on my latest bill (1 month):

the total charge for electricity was $78.35

total bill : $141.38 less rebate of $21.27

(The rebate was brought in a few years ago, presumably to mask the large jump in rates at that time and forestall trouble. I'm expecting it to be quietly dropped any time.)

Edited By Peter Greene 🇨🇦 on 23/08/2022 01:50:18

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by JasonB on 22/08/2022 20:05:05:

Posted by blowlamp on 22/08/2022 19:56:14:

Does anyone know what problem a self-charging hybrid fixes?

Martin.

Better economy than a non hybrid as they recover energy that would otherwise be wasted by using things like regenarative braking. So less fuel burnt for the same given milage.

As they also have an IC engine you still get the range if needed which is one thing the anti electric car people sight as a disadvantage of EVs

Edited By JasonB on 22/08/2022 20:14:48

In addition there is the advantage of using purely electric drive in built up areas and queues of traffic which helps the pollution problem by shifting emissions to out of town.

regards Martin

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Hybrids also have to lug around a heavy battery which reduces mpg and the charging from the engine is both very inefficient and costly.

Andrew.

[Anthony KendallParticipant @anthonykendall53479]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 23/08/2022 09:31:13:

Posted by JasonB on 22/08/2022 20:05:05:

Posted by blowlamp on 22/08/2022 19:56:14:

Does anyone know what problem a self-charging hybrid fixes? Martin.

Better economy than a non hybrid as they recover energy that would otherwise be wasted by using things like regenarative braking. So less fuel burnt for the same given milage.

As they also have an IC engine you still get the range if needed which is one thing the anti electric car people sight as a disadvantage of EVs

In addition there is the advantage of using purely electric drive in built up areas and queues of traffic which helps the pollution problem by shifting emissions to out of town. regards Martin

You are really struggling folks.
Taken overall, I think a hybrid fixes nothing apart from the egos of those wasting money on them.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I plugged my "smart"-meter's display in for the first time yesterday evening. When I saw it first thing this morning, at about 8am, it said I had already used 99p of electricity today!

I thought, where? It is interesting and thought-provoking to survey what our homes get up to…

– Fridge and freezer; both small, under work-top types.

– Broadband Modem, which BT told me I must leave on all the time, apparently for "up-dates". Anyone know about this? I turn the computer off on itself, then at the mains, when not using it.

– The central-heating / hot-water boiler's control unit. When the heating is off the timer is not really doing anything so I wonder if the unit can be switched off until I want hot water (the shower). However, the boiler does have very occasional, curious little coughing and grunting moments so it may need stay "On" for whatever is this (presumably self-testing) routine.

– Oven clock – handy as a clock generally, but not essential. Its main use is as cooking timer.

– Radio / alarm clock in the bedroom.

Of these the fridge and freezer will be the hungry ones, but the rest all add their much smaller pennyworths to the bill.

'

What else?

– Washing-machine? Off at the socket. Microwave? Ditto.

– 'Phone or caving-lamp charger? No, and never overnight anyway.

– Kitchen and front-room radios? Off at sockets. Their own ON/Off switches seem downstream of the internal p.s.u., announced by the very quiet humming.

– Any lamps left on? No. Also, my home is not so overlooked I need curtains everywhere, so it has to a very dark night indeed for the usual mature-male's 3am return-trip to need lamps, my loo being downstairs. A wind-up camping-lantern by the bed, and a small battery-powered, cupboard-type l.e.d. lamp in the bathroom, serve such purposes. I've also fitted a solar-charged lamp over the stairs. Though sold as a garden-shed luminaire but insufficient for a workshop, it is very effective in that indoor role, its array clipped to the banisters and facing a South-facing window. Or would be if it still worked – must try to repair it. (Is there a round-tuit emoji?)

– Workshop equipment? No – off 13A sockets off including those feeding VFD units. If I forget the 4-way extension-lead hung on the wall, a window in the shed door makes the nocturnal glow of its indicator neon, visible from the bedroom window. In that case I switch off the isolator in the hall.

.

It is surprising just how much electricity a home is using when you think it isn't; and it is too easy to surround ourselves with needless "standby" modes, small-power chargers left on past "full", and so on!

Yesterday the meter said I had used about £2 of electricity – and I had used no power-tools or machines other than fridge and freezer; and occasionally the electric kettle with sufficient water for purpose (mug-fulls for beverages, one kettle-full for washing-up).

Perhaps the advertisements for "foot motors" will re-appear in ME and MEW ere long!

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Even with Ontario's added costs it is still cheap cf UK. Perhaps we should be charged the cost of generation + a margin, afterall the windfarms have not really seen any added costs yet. Ditch the international references where appropriate and charge genuine UK costs of generation.

The interconnectors will of course be different rates. I note that EDF customers in France pay a lot less than EDF customers in UK, even though some EDF power comes across the interconnector.

[TomfileryParticipant @tomfilery]

Nigel,

You've forgotten the standing charge, which the display clocks up as well – hence the reason you appear to have a spike of usage at midnight.

Regards Tom

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Anthony Kendall on 23/08/2022 10:16:31:

Posted by Martin Kyte on 23/08/2022 09:31:13:

Posted by JasonB on 22/08/2022 20:05:05:

Posted by blowlamp on 22/08/2022 19:56:14:

Does anyone know what problem a self-charging hybrid fixes? Martin.

Better economy than a non hybrid as they recover energy that would otherwise be wasted by using things like regenarative braking. So less fuel burnt for the same given milage.

As they also have an IC engine you still get the range if needed which is one thing the anti electric car people sight as a disadvantage of EVs

In addition there is the advantage of using purely electric drive in built up areas and queues of traffic which helps the pollution problem by shifting emissions to out of town. regards Martin

You are really struggling folks.
Taken overall, I think a hybrid fixes nothing apart from the egos of those wasting money on them.

Anthony's negative conclusion is much too simplistic.

IC powered cars outperform hybrids on long cruises, like motorway driving. Hybrids do a reasonable job on motorways, it's just that the expensive battery and complicated drive train don't do anything useful.

However, hybrids outperform IC cars in most other circumstances, especially the stop-start driving typical of urban travel. On average, a hybrid gets between 20 and 35% better mpg than the same model with an IC engine. And the emissions are much lower in towns, where IC engines waste fuel ticking over in queues. In the UK more people do stop-start urban journeys than cruise on motorways.

Generalisations are unhelpful when choosing tools, including cars. Whether or not a hybrid is the right choice depends on the type of motoring to be done. Probably not the best choice for someone living in the country who mostly drives long-distance on clearish roads. But an excellent choice for anyone driving in London, where hybrids maximise mpg and avoid the swinging congestion charges waged on gas-guzzlers. Londoners have chosen to breath clean air rather than allow motorists to generate fumes.

I'm not sure why hybrids are rubbished. They're just another choice that's useful in some circumstances. They're not a panacea or a threat to civilisation.

Dave

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by Anthony Kendall on 23/08/2022 10:16:31:

Posted by Martin Kyte on 23/08/2022 09:31:13:

Posted by JasonB on 22/08/2022 20:05:05:

Posted by blowlamp on 22/08/2022 19:56:14:

Does anyone know what problem a self-charging hybrid fixes? Martin.

Better economy than a non hybrid as they recover energy that would otherwise be wasted by using things like regenarative braking. So less fuel burnt for the same given milage.

As they also have an IC engine you still get the range if needed which is one thing the anti electric car people sight as a disadvantage of EVs

In addition there is the advantage of using purely electric drive in built up areas and queues of traffic which helps the pollution problem by shifting emissions to out of town. regards Martin

You are really struggling folks.
Taken overall, I think a hybrid fixes nothing apart from the egos of those wasting money on them.

Apart from the issues fixed as mentioned. As far as efficiency is concerned there will be an RPM where the IC engine is at its max efficiency. If the vehicle was designed to run at this constant rate then as the rotary to electrical conversion efficiency will be high the energy extracted from the fuel will be better than the IC engine alone. Typically battery sizes for hybrids do not require such high capacity as EV's so are lighter and as has been said harvesting energy from regenerative breaking pushes the efficiency even higher. So it helps with the urban pollution problem and uses less fuel.(The Yaris gets 60mpg compared to my fiesta at 50mpg) Apart from that yes you are right it solves nothing.

regards Martin

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 23/08/2022 10:02:45:

Hybrids also have to lug around a heavy battery which reduces mpg and the charging from the engine is both very inefficient and costly.

Andrew.

Have you checked out the latest Honda Hybrid with a very small battery and a direct drive to the wheels over 80km/h. They have a very good fuel economy as well, much better than the same engine in the same car size that has a gear box. The eHEV uses about 1/2 the amount of fuel of the gear box models. Note that the eHEV engine looks to be down rated in power output slightly, and the manin motor to drive the wheels is 80 kw. But the test drive does not seem that the 80kw is insuffecient. Certainly I would have expected a lot more go from the non ev model. but not so. I still driving my 08 Toyota wagon and its around 6l/100km and around 5.3l/100km on a trip. Some of the new electric only cars for sale out here,can be connected to your house and you can draw off the car battery up to 3kw. Some are using their cars as part of the home energy back up, and take the car to work and charge on the free car stations around.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

How long do you think free charging stations will last, sounds like carrot dangling to me.

[Author]

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