Unknown attachment for vintage lathe (1895)

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Vic –

Thank you explaining that.

I like the ball-turning arrangement. I've not heard of that elsewhere though presumably similar would have been common in some areas of industry.

Martin –

Putting holes in wing-nut wings would not reduce the material cost unless they were castings. They are, and usually always were, forged. The customer would still be buying the same amount of metal, but leaving a slightly larger amount behind as swarf. Besides, the punching or drilling would cost more than the metal in the slugs or chips.

The holes don't seem to serve any purpose, unless a previous owner drilled them to suit some sort of pin-spanner.

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 25/09/2022 23:19:44:

Vic,

Please excuse what is probably a digression, but

Inspired by this puzzle to browse all things Pittler, I have just stumbled across his rather beautiful patent for a universal milling machine:

**LINK**

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/77/13/64/7b1e6c7a2372d4/US580195.pdf

MichaelG.

Hello Michael,

von Pittler was an incredible inventor, over 200 patents were lodged by him. The worlds first vertical rotating capstan lathes that could hold as many as 30 tools changed production machines forever. Pittler still exist today with their 'revolver' lathes

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I think it’s easy to see the same mind at work:

.

.

MichaelG.

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 26/09/2022 10:54:59:

I think it’s easy to see the same mind at work:

.

.

MichaelG.

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And it has the same type of dividing spindle as on my Pittlers

[DC31kParticipant @dc31k]

Posted by vic newey on 26/09/2022 12:20:23:

And it has the same type of dividing spindle as on my Pittlers

Please, in the photo, are the two worms interchangeable? That opens the possiblity of having a low count worm wheel and a high count wormwheel.

To my eyes, one of the advantages of a notched-disk dividing plate instead of the more modern one with hole circles is that it could be used with a ratchet mechanism (e.g. like the cross feed on a shaper) driven from another part of the machine in order to advance a set number of notches. Have you ever seen anything like that?

In relation to the machines by Holtzapffel is the Pittler earler, later or about the same time period?

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

Posted by DC31k on 26/09/2022 13:02:09:

Posted by vic newey on 26/09/2022 12:20:23:

And it has the same type of dividing spindle as on my Pittlers

 

Please, in the photo, are the two worms interchangeable? That opens the possiblity of having a low count worm wheel and a high count wormwheel.

To my eyes, one of the advantages of a notched-disk dividing plate instead of the more modern one with hole circles is that it could be used with a ratchet mechanism (e.g. like the cross feed on a shaper) driven from another part of the machine in order to advance a set number of notches. Have you ever seen anything like that?

In relation to the machines by Holtzapffel is the Pittler earler, later or about the same time period?

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There is a one start and a five start worm with the dividing spindle which is easily exchanged.

My C3 lathes main drive has 7 worms instead of the normal three provided as standard so there are 1,5,6,7,8,9 and 10 start together with 20 wheels.

Some of my old Pittler catalogues show milling attachments with a ratchet mechanism using a notched disk, if you would like to see I can scan a page or two

Pittler lathes began with his first factory in 1889, I think that Holtzapeffel are earlier than that

Vic

 

Edited By vic newey on 26/09/2022 13:57:16

Edited By vic newey on 26/09/2022 14:26:51

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

Posted by DC31k on 26/09/2022 13:02:09:

Posted by vic newey on 26/09/2022 12:20:23:

And it has the same type of dividing spindle as on my Pittlers

 

Please, in the photo, are the two worms interchangeable? That opens the possiblity of having a low count worm wheel and a high count wormwheel.

To my eyes, one of the advantages of a notched-disk dividing plate instead of the more modern one with hole circles is that it could be used with a ratchet mechanism (e.g. like the cross feed on a shaper) driven from another part of the machine in order to advance a set number of notches. Have you ever seen anything like that?

In relation to the machines by Holtzapffel is the Pittler earler, later or about the same time period?

—————————————————————————————————-

Here is a catalogue page showing automatic indexing via a notched plate on the bottom right and another page with some milling attachments inc a chain driven one!

 

 

 

Edited By vic newey on 26/09/2022 14:25:06

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Vic –

Very much post-dating Holtzapffel. The modern, TEE Publishing facscimile of Vol.I of Charles Holtzapffel's 5-volume Turning & Mechanical Manipulation treatise on metalworking, shows the original was published in 1843.

(The later volumes were completed and published by his sons, in the decades after Charles' death; except for the projected Vol.VI; never completed..)

What is clear from those catalogue pages is that Pittler was a very go-ahead company with an eye for the volume-production of high-class metalwork. Their smaller machines, such as your lathe, were perhaps intended for such trades as clock, instrument and armaments making.

BTW _ TEE sell, or sold, Holtzapffel Vols. I – III; and I have copies. Does anyone know if facsimiles of Vols,IV and V were ever published, and if so, are available without selling the house to pay for them?

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

In the interests of science and technology and possibly saving the planet I have dismantled it.

you can now see that the spindle has a slot to push out the inserted item in the taper which is slightly bigger than MT1, The lathes tailstock has an unknown taper as well, luckily it came with a centre (which does not fit this thing properly as it jams halfway in) I think I'll ask about that unknown taper another time

Also the main casting is cut through underneath and has two bolts which can only be to lock the spindle tightly so that adds even more questions

The gear has 40 teeth and most parts have '2' stamped on except the insert disk with keyway which has two letter A's of different font types.

I guess this is rather useless as it is although the main casting and slide could be converted to a vertical T slot table with a bit of surgery.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I'm a little horrified that you suggest surgery on what might be a factory prototype or extremely rare item. There has been little time for less frequent readers of the forum to respond, and have you enquired on other forums? You might consider making the missing parts, preferably in the same style as the original, and adding other options.

My suggestion of it being a prototype is based on the second boss being unbored as I fancy that was for a bar to hold a tailstock as per the Myford dividing head. I also venture that the extra-long spindle indicates possible use as a slotter with the robust vertical bar being thus to provide a suitable fixing for the lever.

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

Posted by Bazyle on 26/09/2022 20:01:36:

I'm a little horrified that you suggest surgery on what might be a factory prototype or extremely rare item. There has been little time for less frequent readers of the forum to respond, and have you enquired on other forums? You might consider making the missing parts, preferably in the same style as the original, and adding other options.

My suggestion of it being a prototype is based on the second boss being unbored as I fancy that was for a bar to hold a tailstock as per the Myford dividing head. I also venture that the extra-long spindle indicates possible use as a slotter with the robust vertical bar being thus to provide a suitable fixing for the lever.

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Don't worry, regardless of what I wrote I have not the slightest intention of performing any surgery on it, it will remain on the accessory shelf with other items belonging to the lathe.

Likewise I see no point in attempting to make unknown missing parts without having any real clue as to what is actually missing.

[DC31kParticipant @dc31k]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 26/09/2022 14:44:58:

…except for the projected Vol.VI; never completed..

Does anyone know if facsimiles of Vols,IV and V were ever published

This site gives details of something it calls Vol VI, right at the bottom of the page. It also shows where you can buy paper copies of IV and V. Cheapest source seems to be US, but some will not ship to UK so you might have to find a friendly native to buy for you.

http://holtzapffel.org/publications.html

The link for Vol. VI is broken/incorrect, but it is this one:

http://www.ornamentalturning.co.uk/book_list.htm

Further notes here:

https://www.circuitousroot.com/artifice/machine-shop/ornamental-turning/literature/holtzapffel/index.html

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by vic newey on 26/09/2022 15:46:26:

[…]

Also the main casting is cut through underneath and has two bolts which can only be to lock the spindle tightly
[…]

.

… or is it conceivable that they are used to adjust the bearing to a ‘no shake’ condition prior to commencing work ?

MichaelG.

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 27/09/2022 08:29:01:

… or is it conceivable that they are used to adjust the bearing to a ‘no shake’ condition prior to commencing work ?

MichaelG.

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The spindle is a perfect fit, no play whatsoever, the end play can be adjusted via the gear casting bolt.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Thankyou DC31K.

I am not likely to start ornamental turning – I've enough projects now – but it would be good to complete the set and it matches my more general interest inn early machinery.

I had an idea Dover had published them, but was not sure.

Dover in fact published facsimiles of several classic science and engineering text-books.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by vic newey on 27/09/2022 09:16:08:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 27/09/2022 08:29:01:

… or is it conceivable that they are used to adjust the bearing to a ‘no shake’ condition prior to commencing work ?

MichaelG.

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The spindle is a perfect fit, no play whatsoever, the end play can be adjusted via the gear casting bolt.

.

I will take that as an emphatic NO then, Vic … and wash my mouth out accordingly

MichaelG.

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 27/09/2022 20:51:52:

Posted by vic newey on 27/09/2022 09:16:08:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 27/09/2022 08:29:01:

… or is it conceivable that they are used to adjust the bearing to a ‘no shake’ condition prior to commencing work ?

MichaelG.

———————————————————

The spindle is a perfect fit, no play whatsoever, the end play can be adjusted via the gear casting bolt.

 

.

I will take that as an emphatic NO then, Vic … and wash my mouth out accordingly

MichaelG.

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Apologies Michael , I didn't realise my reply sounded harsh, I just realised that the split in the casting being underneath would drip out any oil from the spindle unless the whole thing is upside down of course

 

Edited By vic newey on 28/09/2022 09:50:37

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

No problem, Vic

My comment was light-hearted

MichaelG.

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