Tuning

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

It was the same in the British car and m/c industry. Engine shop would get a box full of pistons, skilled/ semi-skilled men would measure the pistons and holes ,then fit piston in appropriate hole. Japan bought expensive machine tools, made pistons and holes to fine limits, assembled by unskilled people.

[John FlackParticipant @johnflack59079]

Dave et al………this has moved us away from tweaking ic engines. My thoughts are that if we have moved from making adjustable machines to non adjustable machines over the last 70 years is this progress? On a personal thought I do not want fake medicines, legal highs, fake tyres,flammable children's clothing with fake EEC safety markings whether they come from China or Mars. But I do have thoughts on the labour conditions regardless of methods, and speed of production. The number of Far East visitors in major shopping centres perhaps there are niche markets that the UK can satisfy with quality items. Coming back to the thread…………I have a copy of tuning for speed by phil Irving, it's yours for the asking………. My tuning days have long passed.

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

I love old classic british bikes, but i have to laugh to myself sometimes. The racers of the 60's to beat were the velocette, bsa goldstar, and manx norton's. These bikes made 60hp maximum. The modern bikes are making well over 200hp and can do well over 200mph. I had a japanese race replica a few years ago, and while capable of huge speeds, it was very well behaved at low speeds, around town.

Electronics is what has allowed the power to come out at high engine speeds, while allowing good running at low engine speeds. Dismantle a modern bike and i think they have something like 12 computers monitoring and controlling every aspect of the machine, even suspension settings.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Posted by Gordon W on 02/02/2017 14:01:59:

It was the same in the British car and m/c industry. Engine shop would get a box full of pistons, skilled/ semi-skilled men would measure the pistons and holes ,then fit piston in appropriate hole. Japan bought expensive machine tools, made pistons and holes to fine limits, assembled by unskilled people.

I had a Honda and that still used selected tolerance parts to build the engine to specification, the service manual went into detail on measuring fits with plastigauge to select the correct size replacement parts.

Mike

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Gordon W on 02/02/2017 14:01:59:

It was the same in the British car and m/c industry. Engine shop would get a box full of pistons, skilled/ semi-skilled men would measure the pistons and holes ,then fit piston in appropriate hole. Japan bought expensive machine tools, made pistons and holes to fine limits, assembled by unskilled people.

According to Hooker's autobiography (Not Much of an Engineer), when the Americans started making Merlin engines they told Roll Royce 'we can't work to those tolerances'. Smile on RR face quickly removed when the yanks said ' we work to much tighter tolerances so that any piston goes in any hole, etc'. Obviously cheaper, and makes spares holding much easier. Modern car engines last 200,000 miles plus, anyone bought a 'gold seal' engine in the last 30 years?

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

It was cheap wages that lead to so much hand work in british industry. When you are paying a skilled man a relative pittance, buying expensive machine tools doesn't make much sense. When the japanese invasion happened back in the 60's , not many companies had the money to invest in machinery to try fight them off.

When the triumph motorcycle works in meriden closed up in the early 80's, a lot of the machinery was found to be pre-war and older. One milling machine had welding repairs due to the coventry blitz.

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

If you look at a RR Merlin and a US built Packard Merlin side by side you can see that Packard drastically reduced fastener count too, in order to speed up manufacturing by eliminating many relatively slow drill and tap ops. Their focus was to be able to provide enough engines for the war effort, huge qty's, but also keep reliability high.

I'm told they also consulted with Pratt and Whitney on lubrication and bearing materials/ sizing/ clearance to optimize fits for reliability and longevity. By the second world war P&W had established themselves as makers of very dependable engines for long flights (see Pan Am clippers in 1930's) and with high power to weight ratios. They went on to develop many high power twin row 18 cyl radial engines to be built in huge numbers for bombers and fighter aircraft like the Jug and Corsair in WW2. Also famous for keeping running with one or two cylinder heads and one magneto shot off, etc.

Getting back to bikes, based on my experience over many years messing around with hundreds of Japanese motorcycle engines the reliability and power to weight is second to none, if you follow the factory manual on the critical fits. Just a matter of measuring existing wear or variation and ordering the right parts for rebuild. JD

[TobyParticipant @toby]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 02/02/2017 13:33:52:

The difference with Myford is that almost everything is adjustable, and therefore to get it spot on great deal of skill goes in at the factory.

A typical far-eastern lathe will be mass produced using jigs and generally designed so that little skill is required for actual assembly whilst still giving in-spec results.

One example is the Myford headstock which requires careful adjustment using jacking screws in order to turn parallel. This requires a degree of skill and a significant amount of time and testing.

Most far-Eastern lathes are bored on a jig that matches the inverted-v form of the lathe bed; place the headstock in position, fit screws to the required torque, and you have headstock alignment.

The need for careful assembly has been superseded by a design that requires more advanced machinery and initial setting up to produce (an inverted V bed instead of a flat bed). This latter approach is better suited to mass production. In the end it's like sliced bread, mass produced loaves from value white to multi-seeded batches at prices fit for every pocket, with the option of artisan loaves for those who can afford them.

I'd also venture to point out that 'upgrading and tweking' is not unique to imported lathes. Before the days of inexpensive far-Eastern machines, there were an awful lot of articles in Model Engineer on how to improve and fine-tune a Myford. We even ran three such articles in MEW recently.

Neil

I am with Neil on this. Not wanting to offend anyone but it does make my cry when people hold up the likes of myford as "good engineering". Nicely made perhaps, and well engineered for their time but nowadays good engineering means design for manufacture which means not needed experience and costly trades just to bolt a lathe together…….

The difference between tweeking a chinese lathe and a myford (when new) was the myford probably needed to be tweeked in the factory to be useable, the chinese lathe comes out running pretty ok as it is (but can be tweeked to be even better). Which is really the better engineering?

ps. of course I am only picking on Myford because Neil mentioned it, the fact I own a boxford is irrelevent

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Toby on 02/02/2017 19:52:39:

ps. of course I am only picking on Myford because Neil mentioned it, the fact I own a boxford is irrelevent

Hey! Wait a minute, what did myford ever do to you?

I don't mind them, I might not have the luxury or luck to buy one, cheap or dear. But that doesn't mean they aren't lovely little dovetailed beauties, they certainly strove very hard to give the best they could at that company.

The fact they didn't wind down much earlier in the 70's and 80's is a miracle in itself as far as british manufacture goes.

Michael W

 

Edited By Michael-w on 02/02/2017 20:02:20

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

To my understanding, having spent many years fretting over it, the fundamental revolution that the Japanese started was the simple realisation that it is cheaper and less painful in the end to make something right the first time rather than trying to inspect quality into it afterwards. When you build crap and then spend hours trying to make it better, you are throwing away any chance of profit you might have made. It's a hopeless cause and just begs someone smarter to come along and put you out of a job…..

I noticed on past visits that when UK companies went to assess contractor manufacturers, some of them wanted to head straight to the inspection and rework areas as they considered these to be the critical facilties. Quality is a mentality and like attracts like. These days most factories don't recognise the concept of rework and don't have the people, equipment or space to do it.

The Japanese took this quality mentality to a whole new level in the Toyota system and subsequent derivatives, reducing stock levels, making lines and machinery more flexible and quicker to change over etc. It's particularly ironic that the Japanese quality revolution was started by a middle-aged American (Deming).

I just thank god that the likes of Rover are no longer with us. What an embarrassment it was, growing up with that.

Murray

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Posted by Muzzer on 02/02/2017 20:21:00:

To my understanding, having spent many years fretting over it, the fundamental revolution that the Japanese started was the simple realisation that it is cheaper and less painful in the end to make something right the first time rather than trying to inspect quality into it afterwards. When you build crap and then spend hours trying to make it better, you are throwing away any chance of profit you might have made. It's a hopeless cause and just begs someone smarter to come along and put you out of a job…..

I noticed on past visits that when UK companies went to assess contractor manufacturers, some of them wanted to head straight to the inspection and rework areas as they considered these to be the critical facilties. Quality is a mentality and like attracts like. These days most factories don't recognise the concept of rework and don't have the people, equipment or space to do it.

The Japanese took this quality mentality to a whole new level in the Toyota system and subsequent derivatives, reducing stock levels, making lines and machinery more flexible and quicker to change over etc. It's particularly ironic that the Japanese quality revolution was started by a middle-aged American (Deming).

I just thank god that the likes of Rover are no longer with us. What an embarrassment it was, growing up with that.

Murray

Yes when the japanese were and still do worship the companies they work for, the british and the rest of europe i presume, were going bolshevik. It was arrogance i suppose, keep telling yourself you are the best in the world, even when you are not, and someone is going to come along and wipe your eye.

[JAParticipant @ja]

Posted by Michael-w on 02/02/2017 20:01:51:

Posted by Toby on 02/02/2017 19:52:39:

ps. of course I am only picking on Myford because Neil mentioned it, the fact I own a boxford is irrelevent

Hey! Wait a minute, what did myford ever do to you?

I don't mind them, I might not have the luxury or luck to buy one, cheap or dear. But that doesn't mean they aren't lovely little dovetailed beauties, they certainly strove very hard to give the best they could at that company.

The fact they didn't wind down much earlier in the 70's and 80's is a miracle in itself as far as british manufacture goes.

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 02/02/2017 20:02:20

First I should state that I bought new a very late big bore Myford, just to put "my cards on the table". I like the lathe and it has done everything I have asked of it.

I think that Myfords did make a good effort to stay with the competition. I know little about the 254 but it does strike me as a sensible lathe. As for the ML10 I did fancy one and a good one would still be desirable. I should add that I bought the big bore Myford after experience of buying from the company. Both lathes I bought from them worked well "out of the box" and did not need any fine adjustments, modifications etc other than the expected levelling of the bed.

If I was to buy a new lathe in the future, given that I may be too old to have a new workshop, I would seriously consider a Cowell.

Just don't get me started on motorcycle manufacturers.

JA

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by JA on 02/02/2017 23:21:21:

Posted by Michael-w on 02/02/2017 20:01:51:

Posted by Toby on 02/02/2017 19:52:39:

ps. of course I am only picking on Myford because Neil mentioned it, the fact I own a boxford is irrelevent

Hey! Wait a minute, what did myford ever do to you?

I don't mind them, I might not have the luxury or luck to buy one, cheap or dear. But that doesn't mean they aren't lovely little dovetailed beauties, they certainly strove very hard to give the best they could at that company.

The fact they didn't wind down much earlier in the 70's and 80's is a miracle in itself as far as british manufacture goes.

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 02/02/2017 20:02:20

First I should state that I bought new a very late big bore Myford, just to put "my cards on the table". I like the lathe and it has done everything I have asked of it.

If I was to buy a new lathe in the future, given that I may be too old to have a new workshop, I would seriously consider a Cowell.

Just don't get me started on motorcycle manufacturers.

JA

I just helped a friend machine a few pieces for his motor cycle so I've had enough of them too for the moment!

I love the design of the ML10 too, everyone talks about the super 7, which is great, but there's something about the ML10 that seems quite appealing. The detail in all their work is extraordinary.

Michael W

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Myfords demise was a result of blind management, lack of investment and, hard to say this, a non loyal workforce.

I say non loyal as many of my neighbours were employed at Myfords. Decent guys to the letter but Myfords like a lot of engineering jobs of the time paid a pittance so their take on it was go to work, do as much as necessary, draw the wages and go home.

Why put yourself out when there was no reward

It finished up a factory of old men waiting to retire.

Pre the sale I was in there moving machines that had already been sold. One of the latest CNC lathes they had stood there with all it's documentation on the cabinet. I idly perused this and in there were maintenance bills going back to when it was first new. Not cheap bills either, I quick reckon up and they paid more to keep this old nail going that a new Hass would have cost in it's day and not been so outdated.

They claimed their machining was better than anyone else's but why then did they require the amount of expensive hand fitting to complete a machine.?

Take say a headstock on a 7 series. I can't comment, only guess but I would image that it went on 5 to 8 jigs on 3 to 4 different machines before it came off finished given what equipment they had and seeing all the jigs in the shop they were kept in.

Now take a Sieg C3 lathe head stock of which I can comment on as I have seen these in the factory. They are done of a 4 axis VMC with a trunnion table, not a new machine, in fact quite old.

Because the design calls for a simple box it makes setting up very easy. Believe it or not the 'boxes' are prepped 6 at a time on a big shaper and they have a row of these looked after by one guy.

After prepping they go on the VMC, 4 at a time and 3 faces are machined at one setting, the underside and the vee ways and the two ends with the bearing housings so you know everything is in line as it never moves between operations. Total time for 4 head stocks is 15 to 20 minutes total.

[john swift 1Participant @johnswift1]

In the early 70's I remember commenting about the trouble I had parting off and my dads initial reply was the myford lathes I used at school was "antwacky" and myford was another company that should close

as the managers just sat back and took the money without investing in new designs and production methods

( he didn't have a good word for the management at BICC cables either , but thats another story )

 

I guess he was right but it took a long time to happen

 

John

 

 

 

 

Edited By john swift 1 on 03/02/2017 00:40:06

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

The Myford story sounds much like the last years of the British motorcycle industry. Indifferent management, disgruntled workers, worn out old machine tools, traditional product resting on its laurels. Then along came Honda with all the latest machine tools, machining four-cylinder heads all in one go, die-cast, horizontally split cases all line bored in one hit etc etc. Cheap junk, it'll never last, many said. Only 100,000 miles or so, it turns out.

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by John Stevenson on 02/02/2017 23:52:07:

I say non loyal as many of my neighbours were employed at Myfords. Decent guys to the letter but Myfords like a lot of engineering jobs of the time paid a pittance so their take on it was go to work, do as much as necessary, draw the wages and go home.

Why put yourself out when there was no reward

I can assure you that paying those employees more money would not have produced an ounce of extra output.

To do that you would have had to sack the lot clear them all out & start again.

[steveteeParticipant @stevetee]

Sadly this mind set of 'best in the world' is still alive and kicking in the UK. Only last night I was watching the BBC news. Welsh farmers produce the 'best lamb in the world' now that are worried that if we do a trade deal with NZ then Kiwi lamb will come in and undercut them . There are currently quotas that limit the amount of meat the Kiwis can sell here. When we are out of the EU these won't apply of course. It's the same model that sounded the death knell for our industries and it really sad, but if we can't compete on a level playing field then in the long term it's not going to end well is it?

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by John Stevenson on 02/02/2017 23:52:07:

Myfords demise was a result of blind management, lack of investment and, hard to say this, a non loyal workforce.

Good to read such views from someone who actually knows.

Russell.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

We only have about a third of the sheep numbers that we had 40/50 years ago, back then a saying was NZ has a population of 83,000,000, and 3,000,000 think they are humans. There are still quite a few sheep, but a lot of farms have gone over to dairy cows, the local dairy factory is one of the largest in the Southern Hemisphere, and there are plans to double it's size. perhaps we'll sell you milk powder instead of lamb.

Ian S C

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 03/02/2017 07:58:05:

Posted by John Stevenson on 02/02/2017 23:52:07:

I say non loyal as many of my neighbours were employed at Myfords. Decent guys to the letter but Myfords like a lot of engineering jobs of the time paid a pittance so their take on it was go to work, do as much as necessary, draw the wages and go home.

Why put yourself out when there was no reward

I can assure you that paying those employees more money would not have produced an ounce of extra output.

To do that you would have had to sack the lot clear them all out & start again

…

Looking at industrial history, the unenlightened greed of the early industrialists and many of their successors set the UK up for two centuries of piss-poor labour relations when what we needed was fair dealling and team work.

Whenever the workforce is exploited by low pay, tokens only valid in company shops, not providing heath cover or pensions, inflicting piecemeal rates, dangerous working conditions, and repeated breaches of trust, there will be a counter-movement. And exploited people have very long-memories.

When the counter-movement itself becomes corrupt, life gets very difficult. Mr Grabgrind (a Right-wing, ignorant, sociopath) will find it very difficult to negotiate sensibly with Comrade Napoleon (a left-wing psychotic pig only interested in power.) Mr Grabgrind won't invest if he can't rely on the workforce, and the workforce won't go the extra mile for Grabgrind because history proves he's exploitative.

Presumably Sam speaks from experience when he says "To do that you would have had to sack the lot clear them all out & start again". But that very much begs the question "who was responsible for recruiting these terrible people in the first place?" Perhaps they were taken on by someone untrained in recruitment, who wasn't offering much in the way of job security, training, or pay?

We are all guilty…

Dave

Typos, typos.

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 03/02/2017 12:57:57

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 03/02/2017 13:00:10

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 03/02/2017 12:56:22:

Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 03/02/2017 07:58:05:

Posted by John Stevenson on 02/02/2017 23:52:07:

I say non loyal as many of my neighbours were employed at Myfords. Decent guys to the letter but Myfords like a lot of engineering jobs of the time paid a pittance so their take on it was go to work, do as much as necessary, draw the wages and go home.

Why put yourself out when there was no reward

I can assure you that paying those employees more money would not have produced an ounce of extra output.

To do that you would have had to sack the lot clear them all out & start again

…

Looking at industrial history, the unenlightened greed of the early industrialists and many of their successors set the UK up for two centuries of piss-poor labour relations when what we needed was fair dealling and team work.

Whenever the workforce is exploited by low pay, tokens only valid in company shops, not providing heath cover or pensions, inflicting piecemeal rates, dangerous working conditions, and repeated breaches of trust, there will be a counter-movement. And exploited people have very long-memories.

When the counter-movement itself becomes corrupt, life gets very difficult. Mr Grabgrind (a Right-wing, ignorant, sociopath) will find it very difficult to negotiate sensibly with Comrade Napoleon (a left-wing psychotic pig only interested in power.) Mr Grabgrind won't invest if he can't rely on the workforce, and the workforce won't go the extra mile for Grabgrind because history proves he's exploitative.

Presumably Sam speaks from experience when he says "To do that you would have had to sack the lot clear them all out & start again". But that very much begs the question "who was responsible for recruiting these terrible people in the first place?" Perhaps they were taken on by someone untrained in recruitment, who wasn't offering much in the way of job security, training, or pay?

We are all guilty…

Dave

Typos, typos.

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 03/02/2017 12:57:57

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 03/02/2017 13:00:10

The first part of your post is perfectly correct. However, from my experience & friendship with Jack Dash of the docks — remember him? will demonstrate that whatever management did once they realised they had made serious mistakes they were never going to make things right. Making men stand in a field waiting to see if they had a job that day & hoping that they had bought the foreman enough drinks the night before otherwise they got sent home with no pay was no way to treat the workers. ( I lived & worked near Tilbury docks)

However, the phrase " never give a docker an even break" soon became evident when repeated attempts to raise wages, conditions & jobs for life just produced total greed from the workforce. Hardly surprising considering how they had been treated in the past.. I still remember watching the men meeting on the " docker's field" in Tilbury with the stewards on boxes calling the men to strike. Quite frightening to a young teenager.

So the solution- Felixtowe docks – Privately owned, a new setup & away from the history of the London, & to an extent Tilbury, docks.

Effectively the docks were cleared out, at great expense to the country as a result of disgustingly poor management, poor investment, poor treatment of workers & adverse union activity that spawned the likes of Jack Dash.

In a similar vein, inefficient companies eventually disappear ( well OK BT & co manage to survive but the exception proves the rule or so they say!!!!) & that is what happens & my comment, although harsh on the working man( just try going home to the wife to tell her you have no job & no prospects. ) is the reality. The whole lot gets cleared out & if the will is there it starts again with a new set up. Unfortunately the will is not always there.

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 03/02/2017 13:31:31

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 03/02/2017 13:32:25

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 03/02/2017 12:56:22:

Looking at industrial history, the unenlightened greed of the early industrialists and many of their successors set the UK up for two centuries of piss-poor labour relations when what we needed was fair dealling and team work.

Dave

 

I wouldn't doubt that it's been a rocky road for labour relations in the U.K, the push-pull tit for tat debates, a lot of early strikers got hanging or prison sentences, their actions have undoubtly lead to better quality of life for all.

It isn't fair though to tar all industrialists with the same brush, yes some were greedy but there's a long list of those who had a desire to improve things.

**LINK**

Joseph Rowntree is a good example.

We have more wealth than ever before in this country, as a fact, and the strikes played their part in the fabric of our social history.. did it really lead to ever worsening conditions for both worker and boss? No. but it made them think twice about how they treat people.

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 03/02/2017 13:36:02

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Don't forget the Cadbury family too and probably most famously Titus Salts. The Bass family of brewing fame were also supposed to be very good to employees and the community. Sadly all thats gone now, when vulture funds and multinationals are in the driving seat, everything possible goes to them.

Also has anyone else noticed the way engineers/mechanics etc are portrayed on the western telly and films ? Usually as a barely literate shaved ape's in mucky overalls. Also refered to as grease monkeys. But if anyone watches the Japanese NHK news channel, they have a series called "Supreme Skills", in which the work of various trades are observed and celebrated. Have a look on youtube.

Edited By ronan walsh on 03/02/2017 15:32:36

Edited By ronan walsh on 03/02/2017 15:35:06

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Well that had me on the edge of my seat!

Perhaps we should have a top challenge at MEX!

Who's up for it and can we make a spin-up machine?

Neil

[Author]

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