Truing up the shaper v ways

[lee hawkins 1Participant @leehawkins1]

[lee hawkins 1Participant @leehawkins1]

Hello all

What would be the best way of truing up the ways on my shaping machine Ram, and Ways, is it possible for them to be Scraped true? this is what I would like do, or is this a milling machine job

lee

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Lee,

Without throwing doubt on your judgement, I have to ask if you are sure the ways on the guide and ram are no longer true.

Oils tend to go gummy at the ends of the slide and if you have been shaping over a short stroke for some time, all the tired oil and accumulated junk like dust, dead flies etc gets shoved to those points and the ram motion tightens there as a result.

I would first recommend thorough cleaning, re-oiling and re-adjustment of the jib before taking any drastic steps. If you disconnect the crank so that the ram can only be pushed about by hand that will make resetting the gib much easier.

Re-alignment of the ways would be a major piece of work and probably well outside the capacity of most people's equipment in home use.

Regards Brian

[lee hawkins 1Participant @leehawkins1]

Hello Brian,

No, it's not that the ways are out of true, what I should of said, what would it take to skimed the ways up,

I have been thinking on restoring the shaper back to as new condition, seen some really nice restorations jobs done on shaping machines, change all the bearings tighten the machine up, total strip down and a re paint.

lee

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello again Lee,

Doesn't skimming the guideways amount to the same things as truing them up? Apart from all the other considerations, how do you propose to assess the state of the main guide anyway to see if it needs work? A 2 foot ruler isn't up to that.

I would still be inclined to give everything a good clean and get all the old crap off it. Bluing the ram and running that up and down against the main guide will tell you a lot—-I really would be very reluctant to do anything in the way of metal removal.

Regards Brian

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I'm with Brian on this one Lee.

By all means give the ram a deep clean, change the felts and (re)adjust the gibs but then see how she runs. You don't mention what make/model your shaper is but these were generally machines made to do hard work and they had long life almost built in. I wouldn't do anything too drastic until I had very good evidence it was required.

Regards,

IanT

[lee hawkins 1Participant @leehawkins1]

OK, yes I know what your saying

When I first got the shaper, I took the ram off and give it a bit of a clean up, it took me alot of fiddling about to get the Gib ajusted so the ram would not bind in different spots, ajust one screw and it would bind somewhere else and this is how it would go, I have got it at the moment working ok, but I have never really been happy with this, so this is where I am getting the thoughts of the ram have wear, so giving me so much greif with Gib ajustment ,

every thing else about the shaper is spot-on

I did post on here a while back about that I was get black oil running down front of the ram , I would oil the ram then after a few minuites the oil would be pushed out the front edge on the right side of the ram way (stood looking facing the front of the shaper) and it would be black just like the oil you would get out the sump of a old car when you didi a oil change

I will admit, I have only ever used standard engine oil on any mechinery, but I have never own a shaper before, could it maybe this is my problem. someone on here mentioned that this type of oil could cause build up of oil varnish?

the shaper is a Elliott 10m

lee

 

Edited By lee hawkins 1 on 22/07/2014 07:17:05

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by lee hawkins 1 on 21/07/2014 17:55:04:

… is it possible for them to be Scraped true? this is what I would like do, or is this a milling machine job

.

Lee,

Regarding your specific question … If the ways and the gib-strip are apparently all good and true, but the ram is still rubbing, then you should be able to effect some improvement with a scraper and/or careful use of a slipstone.

BUT this is a big chunk of metal to work on, especially if this is your first attempt, and it would be very easy to make things worse rather than better.

When you are absolutely certain that the vees are spotlessly clean, have a very good look at the gib-strip and its adjusters before you go any further. … In my limited experience; poorly engineered gib-strip adjustment is a common source of trouble. [Geo. H. Thomas has described the problem and its cure in some detail]

If there is visible ["daylight under a straightedge"] wear, then the vees will probably need truing, by filing or machining, before you bother with a scraper.

MichaelG.

.

P.S. This thread is worth reading.

Also, this page.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 22/07/2014 08:20:02

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 22/07/2014 08:34:16

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 22/07/2014 08:35:36

[SteveIParticipant @stevei]

Hi,

Some comments from a (very much) novice scraper. These are worth what you paid for them!

Getting the muscle memory to scrape is relatively quick. Knowing where to scrape and how much is the hard bit.

1. I'd recommend a lot of practice before touching a valuable machine tool.
The key being that you want to take off the absolute minimum amount of material that gets the alignment and then the quality of the bearing surfaces back into specification.
So far taking the minimum is what I have found to be the real challenge. Until I can be confident of that I am simply working on small projects.

2. Use carbide. HSS goes blunt quickly.

3. try and find someone who knows what they are doing to mentor you or go on a course or both.

4. You need to make a plan with the objectives clear before you start. This would include:

A) Final Tolerances.(from a thread on practicalmachinist.com from experts)

for scraping and alignment e.g. 0.0002" per 12". with 12-20PPI (points per inch) with 50% contact. For a higher specification e.g. a surface plate, straight edge etc 0.00005 per 12" 30-40 PPI with 50% contact.
for scraping for squareness. You actually want to scrape it so that it first wears in rather than wears out. I have an Elliot 10m that is on the list to scrape.
It would be wonderful if someone could educate us on the appropriate squareness and/or Schlesinger limits for a shaper .

B) Current tolerances

e.g. what parts of the machine are worn and to what extent. You need to know exactly where you are starting from. One way to find this out is to breakdown the whole machine clean it thoroughly and then reassemble.
You will then be able to know precisely where you are starting from. Also it is often the case that there are machined none bearing surfaces on the castings. You can use these as the reference since they have no wear to check for squareness on the worn bearing surfaces.

5. See point 1. Start small.

Despite my own "big" (quite possibly insane) plans to scrape my 10m and my bridgeport mill ways. I quickly realised the scale of the task. So I bought an old "sacrificial" 12"x18" cast iron surface plate from a dealer. My target was to get 20 point per inch with 50% contact. It is not easy.
Next I will try and get to 40 PPI. With a bit of luck I'll turn my £10 plate into a useful precision tool. Next I have a nice big Bridgeport right angle plate for the mill table (that came with the mill) with a few dinks in to do.

6. Do research

There are a few nice resources on the net.
http://www.machinerepair.com both the book and video are very good.
the practicalmachinist.com website is a gold mine.
You can get a 2 disc DVD "Scraping For Alignment Metalworking machinery" (host Mike Stets) from ebay.com. It is based around a Bridgeport mill. But it does have a lot of simple explanations on how to check for alignment and squareness using simple tools.
youtube has lots of nice scraping videos.

7. You'll need some tools. Surface plates, straight edges, squares etc etc. These are not cheap. It might be cheaper to get it done professionally, and it will be a lot quicker, and you'll be back making your models (or whatever it is you make).

Steve

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Steve,

I think you have put across all the points that matter on the subject of scraping with both clarity and precision, it is NOT a trivial matter as you so succintly describe.

My one venture into that art form was to scrape a surface plate referencing back to an Inspection grade plate for comparison and revealing the high spots as I went. I don't suppose for one moment I got a point score anywhere near those you describe!

Lee may have much more experience than he lets on; scraping triangular machine tool ways is another level of skill above getting things flat.

I would be looking for all the excuses I could find to avoid inflicting my amateur efforts on my own Elloit 10M.

As Ian T observed earlier, they are rugged machines built for hard work and maintaining the squareness to the table ways would be an added challenge, in addition to dealing with the ram and it's guide.

Regards Brian

[lee hawkins 1Participant @leehawkins1]

Thanks everyone for your posts really appreciate the advice

Steve, you made that sound very off putting ( I say that with a smile) I have trued up ways before on wire twisting machines at a company I worked for long time ago, similar to a lathe bed but not so accurate

At the moment I have another project going, nearing the finish not allot left to do,

I did remove the Ram on the shaper today, gave it a clean up, On the actual ways I could still see the machining marks, stood in front facing the shaper, the left way for what I could see were what I would call very good condition nice machining marks, 'good for oil retention', now the right side way was not so good, still had machining marks but they drifted of into the corners of the V way, all along about 10mm out from the corner of the V , the machining marks became just faint

Maybe it's my gibe setting that is suspect or I am over thinking things

Still would be nice if I am restoring this shaper, the ram machine surfaces could be nice and new.

lee

 

Edited By lee hawkins 1 on 22/07/2014 19:17:03

[SteveIParticipant @stevei]

lee,

I didn't mean to put you off. I just tried to explain that based on my first tentative steps into scraping the major lesson is you need to be very careful and methodical about this. From the internet accounts plenty "amateurs" do this and do it well. Some ruin there machines. It is my hope that I can bring my machines back to factory tolerances. I am guessing that with the experience you have you are set on returning it to the factory specification and deep down a paint job and clean wont cut it. I am cursed with the same mind set.

I took a quick look at the ways on my 10m ram. They are a scraped surface, with some wear. I am surprised you are seeing machining marks. From your description of the wear it sounds to me like you have a small but critically important job to do in cleaning out the lubrication delivery to the ram if you have not already done so.

From the time cleaning and observing all my second hand clapped out machine tools here is one rule of thumb, if the means to deliver way oil is blocked those bearing surfaces will be heavily worn. Especially so if they are different. E.g. my bridgeport mill which has some of the surfaces chromed and some cast iron. where the one shot lub lines were blocked or damaged the chromed ways are hardly worn and the cast iron is heavily worn, that is compounded by the problem of how to scrape the chromed ways. The under side of my mills saddle is like a ploughed field, and of course it is not possible to see that until you take the saddle off. I wish I had known/thought that dependency through before I purchased. Having said that I will scrape what I can and then see where I am.

Another option if you have heavy wear is to machine the ram down. Then epoxy turcite (or equivalent) and then scrape that in. There are some good youtube videos on that. I am considering that on the underside of my mills saddle since that brings me back up to the factory dimensions. If I decide to do that I'll be practicing on scrap metal first.

Good luck and whether you scrape or not please post the progress. Also if someone has the knowledge and experience of the tolerances for a shaper please post them! If anyone is inclined to run a scraping course please let me know.

[lee hawkins 1Participant @leehawkins1]

Steve

Have you seen this before, this guy machined all the ways , and the ram, this is how I want to restore my shaper

**LINK**

 

lee

Edited By lee hawkins 1 on 22/07/2014 20:36:43

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by lee hawkins 1 on 22/07/2014 07:13:34:…it took me alot of fiddling about to get the Gib ajusted so the ram would not bind in different spots, ajust one screw and it would bind somewhere else and this is how it would go, I have got it at the moment working ok, but I have never really been happy with this, so this is where I am getting the thoughts of the ram have wear, so giving me so much greif with Gib ajustment ,…

lee

 

Edited By lee hawkins 1 on 22/07/2014 07:17:05

Lee, your problem may be in the gib adjustement rather than excessive wear on the ram and/or ways.

Usual way to adjust a gib is to clean and lub everything first, checking gib for nicks and burrs all over, paying special attention to the holes the adjusting screws go into. Then reassemble. First you back off all the gib screws and screw down the two end screws (one at each end) until they just kiss metal.

Slide the ram back and forth and keep adjusting the two end screws until you get nice free movement without slop. Yes a slightly worn way may be a shade tighter at the ends than in the middle but most often a reasonalble compromise can be found. When you have those two screws the best you can get them, nip up their locknuts (and check again to make sure locknuts have not changed the setting of the screws.

Then, when the two end screws are set, you bring the other screws in until they just kiss the gib strip but do not exert any further pressure on it. Check gib movement again and back out any tight middle screws by a bee's whisker (that's about half a hare's breath) and nip up the lock nuts, checking again the lock nuts have not changed the tension on the screws. A tight-fitting screwdriver that holds the screw very steady while nipping up the locknut is a must. A tappet adjusting tool even better. (Has a T handle on the screwdriver part that shows up any small movement of the screw.)

Certainly worth fiddling about with before doing anything drastic to the ways etc.

PS (Edit) Also check the state of the ends of the gib adjust screws and spin them in lathe and clean them up if uneven, worn or burred. That way, the turning of the screw will exert consistently increasing pressure on the gib strip. Burrs or wear on the ends of the screws (or the holes in the gib they go into) can lead to problems like you describe where it seems impossible to adjust them consistently due to the high and low spots on the end of the screw.

Edited By Hopper on 23/07/2014 06:22:50

Edited By Hopper on 23/07/2014 06:27:33

Edited By Hopper on 23/07/2014 06:30:46

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Just an observation about the lube situation on the sliding head, engine oil is not that good for these situations and as there is a lot of weight sliding back and forth perhaps one of the more up to date Lubes would be better.

I have found that PTFE based lubes are very good and search out dirt and as being PTFE has a very low friction coefficient. I know they are available in small cans for use in engines ( Wynns come to mind and must still be available,) Thick oil is not the best idea and the Wynns oil loaded with PTFE is quite thin. The PTFE enters the small marks left by machining and gives permanent protection against metal to metal contact. It can also be bought in a spray can from Bike shops as the cyclists use it on chains, also m/cycle shops sell it.

Clive

[SteveIParticipant @stevei]

Lee,

http://www.neme-s.org is a great site.

Again I am a novice. However if you machine the bearing surfaces to a high standard. What space is there left for the way oil? Wouldn't this result in more wear? Wouldn't you also get "stick-slip" from too much bearing contact?

If you leave the gib loose and have space for the oil you'll have a problem with the accuracy of the machine. My (novice) understanding is that bearing surfaces are scraped to provide recess for the oil with a tight gib and to avoid stick-slip to reduce the friction.

One thing we haven't mentioned is "flaking", from my Michael Morgan book "Basic Scraping Modern Methods":

Flaking – is a surface treatment given to ways and other bearing surfaces on a machine for the purposes of providing improved distribution and retention of lubrication and to to reduce the amount of bearing contact……"

Perhaps someone could educate me here, what is the modern machined way to create a bearing surface? Machined then flaked?

Steve

[lee hawkins 1Participant @leehawkins1]

Hello all,

I removed the Ram , the gib, cleaned it all up, checked everything then reassembled it all back again, went through the adjustment procedures that Hopper set out in his post, it was still the same, but I did notice that when I was tightening down the gib securing bolts, oil was being forced out through one of the little oiler ports and I could actually see the gib being forced down by the bolt , did some head scratching and have now come to the conclusion that the gib is warped , I recon I know how when this happened, when I first got the machine, I was cutting down the side of a piece of steel that Had some hard spots on the surface and the tool jammed, I had to rush and hit the clutch leaver,

I have my fingers cross that I may have just bent the bolts and not the gib

Regards

lee

[SteveIParticipant @stevei]

Lee,

Thats hopefully good news. At the risk of answering my own question and in case your interested take a look at the attached picture hopefully its readable. Its Dr Schlesinger's permissible errors when testing shaping machines.

[lee hawkins 1Participant @leehawkins1]

I haven't done much with my shaper since last posting on here, went off and got into another project I had going before messing about with the shaper, I need it working now,

I got chatting to a friend I worked with several years Back, he was the old fitter/engineer at my old work place, I explained the troubles having with my shaper, I told him that I have had the ram off several times, the first thing he said was, What lubrication you using? I told him I was using engine oil, he said ,what neat engine oil? he said na na you cant use that on a shaping machine, it's much to thick for shaper slide ways, if any of that oil gets under the gib strip, you will never be able to adjust it to run properly, What happens is, you are bolting/tightening the gib down on the thick oil that I bet you got under there when you oiled the slide ways and put the ram back on, ever heard the term hydraulic lifting? he said I bet also you got some of that oil in the bolt holes, He told me, if I must use engine oil on machinery, get a drop of paraffin and thin it out, also he said reassemble the ram with no oil, do it dry and then use the oil ports after its back together.

Yesterday I took the ram off , and sure enough everything he said was dead right , so i did everything that he said to do, the shaper is now running nice!, better than when I first got it

unbelievable

lee

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by lee hawkins 1 on 07/09/2014 08:44:21:

Yesterday I took the ram off , and sure enough everything he said was dead right , so i did everything that he said to do, the shaper is now running nice!, better than when I first got it

.

Excellent news, Lee:

Thanks for sharing … Lesson for the day.

MichaelG.

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