Traction Engine Identification Help Please….

[MichaelRParticipant @michaelr]

A lot has been said about the boiler of this engine and “rightly so” but that safety valve is very suspect to me, it has no chimneys to house the valves and the lever that should hold the valves in the chimneys is jammed upside down onto what may be the valves, how it works I wouldn’t know, I don’t think that it is a original designed safety valve a boiler inspector would may be question the valve before any test.

Just my thoughts.

MichaelR

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Wouldn’t that Juliet have a 7″ boiler, some 40% larger than what is being discussed here? And we have not even seen the size and number of tubes yet.

Even if an independant inspector could look at a sand blasted old steel boiler he would find it difficult to see what weld prep was used and if the prep was deep enough or of the correct type. Same applies to the metal if it is boiler plate or just mild steel. At the every least he may want to derate the working pressure whatever that may be.

Also without any signs of a manhole it is going to be hard to see what the crown stay arrangement is though I suppose a small camera might be able to go in through one of the fitting holes. Same would apply to the condition of the inside as most steel traction engine boilers have a man hole.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Not all traction engines have chimneys to the safety valves. Model and full size Fowlers don’t and is it upside down, most tend to curl upwards or do you mean the spring should be below the lever when you say it is upside down, again see the Fowler style. Possibly missing the two clevis type parts where the small holes are.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I’d not worry too much about the safety-valves either though I think I’d want a lock-nut on the stem.

It’s hard to tell the exact shape of the lever, but in that form its contacts with the valve heads ought be semi-circular.

.

I take you point about the problem with establishing the structure of the welds, if this boiler is of steel. I am not though really convinced that mild-steel is somehow any different for having certificates of conformity – they supposedly say only that the metal consistently meets an industrial standard, not whether it is suitable for a given application. It still goes rusty! Far more important is the structure and weld quality, and no, those will be very hard to assess.

Do we really know what this boiler is made from, though?

I don’t have the original drawings for my loco but do know it was built more or less just by copying the LBSC ones by time-two on the dimensions – but copying fairly liberally. Its original boiler, back in the early-1980s, doubtless used whatever off-cuts of standard pipe and hot-rolled steel plate happened to be available, though it was welded properly.

I’ve just tried to obtain the basic sizes of its replacement boiler, of copper. It had to fit the same space including smokebox diameter (also apparently made from ordinary steel pipe) and slightly <6″ width between the frames, so its shell is of 6″ internal diameter, roughly 17″ long between tube-plates. Whatever LBSC had specified.

As far as I can measure it by tape-measure, the grate is only about 7″ long by 3.5 – 4″ wide. (The grate and ashpan do not fall clear of the locomotive; the grate swings down to drop the fire. So not easy to measure.) 9 half-inch tubes, 3 superheater flues.

So not very dissimilar to this traction-engine, at least in overall size.

[Bill MorganParticipant @billmorgan86057]

Again, thanks to all that have spent the time to send me these detailed replies, I honestly didn’t expect such a response. As soon as I am able I will get a magnet and do some investigation on the boiler and also try and take some photos inside the smoke box, fire box and ash pan. Thank you again gentlemen. Back soon, Bill.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

Not all traction engines have chimneys to the safety valves. Model and full size Fowlers don’t and is it upside down, most tend to curl upwards or do you mean the spring should be below the lever when you say it is upside down, again see the Fowler style. Possibly missing the two clevis type parts where the small holes are.

I was thinking the spring should be below the lever with two clevis bearing down on the valves, but thanks to your picture I can see it is very similar to your picture, so is the engine a Fowler ?

Thanks for putting me right.

MichaelR

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

Don’t know if it necessarily suggests a Fowler, but the SV on the model is perhaps easier to make than “the other way up” used by some manufacturers, hence attractive for a free-lance model.

[MichaelR]

MichaelR Said:

so is the engine a Fowler ?

It’s probably the only Fowler type feature on the engine, more Burrell to me.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I hope the boiler can be certified, but please do be prepared for possibly having to have a new one made – it would cost a few thousand ££ (maybe around £3000 – 4000?) but at least you’d know it would be all present and correct.

Examine the existing one carefully so see if there are any makers’ marks on it.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

A steel boiler without any paperwork or drawings for practical purposes is not certifiable in this day and age. It may be possible but will cost considerable money, for metal analysis, ultrasonic tests, X ray tests Etc. After all of that the inspector has to be happy ! Ah well. Noel.

[Bill MorganParticipant @billmorgan86057]

Well, I have now had a much closer look at the boiler, the plate at the smoke box end is steel and has copper tubes silver soldered into it, the rear plate which is obviously part of the fire box is also steel (as I guess it would be on all engines?) and the copper tubes are also silver soldered into this, (see photos). S, with what has been posted on this so far I assume that if this engine is to ever be fired it will need a new boiler made from copper.

The first question which springs to mind is, if your fire box is steel and your boiler is copper how are the two joined together?

My second question is, I assume there are other plates within the boiler to support the tubes, not just the smoke box and fire box plates?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I see a steel boiler with expanded in copper tubbes

Looks like a couple of the tubes have had some solder (Comsol) added probably to cure leaks, will reply more in a while

[Andy StopfordParticipant @andystopford50521]

There are some highly dubious looking welds in the firebox. I’m afraid you’re looking at a new boiler. The firebox is part of the boiler.

On a full size traction engine the outer sides of the firebox are extended upwards to form the hornplates carrying the crankshaft, etc. On models in the smaller size range they are separate and bolted on. Yours appear to be welded to the firebox outer wrapper (see the 6th photo down), but could probably be cut off and bolted to a replacement boiler, though making new might be easier.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

There are no other internal supports for the boiler tubes.

As I said earlier most of those tubes look to be expanded into holes in the steel plates, I have arrowed the few that look to have been soldered (badly at the front) which suggests attempts to cure leaks and may be why the engine is in pieces.

It would be interesting to know the thickness of these two plates

Altough not that common to weld on hornplates (vertical outer plates on the firebox) some designs do use welds, Haining’s ploughing engines certainly do. But normally the nuts you can see inside the firebox are what are used to hold the hornplates to th eboiler be uit steel or copper.

Which brings me on to  ather thing I can’t see any sign of and that is stays inside the firebox which are there to stop the inner and outer layers dulging under pressure.

Given all this I would say weigh it in for scrap.

Before contemplating a replacement boiler ask yourself if you want to carry on and ressurect this particular engine given that it is not a known design and with respect you don’t have much knowledge of how a model traction engine goes together.

So you could ressurect this and run it on low air pressure might even do a few circle sin the garden with a long hose. Or do you want something to steam in which case it may be best to start from scratch to a known design as all you might be able to salvage are the wheels.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Another nail in the coffin, the boiler barrel scales as 2.4mm thick, about half what it should be for a 5″ steel boiler.

[MichaelRParticipant @michaelr]

I notice that there is no fused plug in the fire box crown, and what seems like plugged up fitting (Arrowed) and what seems to be the blower pipe looks like a locomotive type not usual for a traction engine, usually the blower feed is taken from the steam cavity in the cylinder block and operated by a globe valve between cylinder block and chimney base.

I would be looking into a new boiler.

 

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I thought that may be a longditudinal stay, with the blower pipe running down a hollow stay

 

[MichaelRParticipant @michaelr]

Jason, that’s probably what it is and most likely does the job, but not normal for a traction engine boiler construction.

It would be better as a washout plug, and I don’t see any of those in the foundation ring area.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Dear Bill, it is sad but the boiler is not fit for further service ! With so many expensive parts missing and it being I fancy a freelance design the cost of a new boiler and the missing parts is well beyond the models worth. It is so incomplete that it isn’t even fit to be an ornament. The bits you have might be saleable to use on something else, I’m thinking as I write. Ah well. Noel.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

With all this new information, Bill, I am afraid I largely agree with Jason, Noel, et. al.

The boiler is clearly of welded steel construction throughout, but with copper tubes. That is common practice; and it is also normal for larger-scale miniature traction-engines to have steel, not copper, boilers for strength. The boiler is also the chassis on these vehicles.

The matter of no fusible plug is not a problem. It is not compulsory, and at one boiler-testing seminar I attended I was surprised to learn they cause more trouble than not.

What are problems?

Let’s start with the apparent lack of firebox stays, and those nuts (and bolts or studs?) inside the firebox. What are they for? They are potential leak-paths, will corrode rapidly in service and indeed look as if they have leaked.

Does the firebox lack side-plate stays? There are many rivet-heads around the bottom of the hornplate and level of the foundation-ring, in the photograph Jason has annotated with green arrows, so what do they hold?

The fire-tubes look as if expanded in wiv’ an ‘ammer and crude drift rather than proper tube-expander, which pushes the tube wall fully and evenly into contact with the plate.

 

Some of the welding looks very poor even to my eyes. That around the foundation-ring certainly looks of better quality than mine… but I don’t try to build steel boilers. The welds around the firebox tube-plate look to me as they have not penetrated the joint fully. The faults would be a failure point, preferably in inspection not physically, as potential corrosion-inception points and stress-raisers.

The welding of the horn-plates to the outer firebox – pointed out by Andy – puzzles me, too. That is not normal practice even on miniatures with un-prototypically welded boilers. Usually, the plates are attached with plenty of hefty studs and nuts in blind bushes or pads welded into the outer firebox walls. I think on some designs at least, the firebox side stays this boiler seems to lack are welded into countersunk holes and ground flush so they like countersink rivets, allowing the hornplates to be fitted flush with the firebox sides.

 

I agree with Michael that the hexagonal thing in the smokebox is probably a longitudinal stay. There should be a corresponding sign of it on the back-head. There is nothing intrinsically wrong from a boiler-testing or functional view with a freelance traction-engine using a hollow stay for a blower feed, but it is simply not typical traction-engine practice. The blower (or “steam jet” , sometimes, in road steam parlance) valve was always placed awkwardly, just behind the chimney, I think partly to discourage excessive use the engine manufacturers advised against.

The blower nozzle should also point concentrically up the chimney but that as shown is probably just by minor damage or a loose union and really, the least of your worries.

 

As Jason has shown, the boiler shell is far too thin at under 3mm. It will hold the pressure in this fairly modest diameter, assuming around 90psi or a little more typical of a miniature steam-engine of this scale. However, it gives no corrosion allowance and is fundamentally weak for combining being a pressure-vessel with forming the chassis of a heavy vehicle expected to be able to cross rough ground!

 

Looking at the circumstantial evidence, including the condition of the grate and ashpan…. this engine has been steamed, but perhaps only once or twice for a short time, maybe simply to test it. We don’t know if the gearing etc. were ever completed or if that “steam test” was a work-in-progress event.

I suspect its builder found all sorts of leaks and possibly other problems, and may have tried to correct them (trying to use any sort of solder on a used steel tubeplate is sheer desperation), but failed and perhaps lost heart and abandoned the poor thing.

 

Even if the engine is not to a known design, if the surviving mechanical parts are all serviceable, having a new boiler made could be worthwhile; but I am afraid with so much other work needed your money and time may be better spent on a completely new project, and to a published design.

“… if… ” Do you know the general standard of design and workmanship in the rest of the machine? Just from the photographs it does not look too bad but that’s only by external appearance.

 

As it is, you are faced with both needing buy a new, custom-made boiler and having to re-design and make all the missing bits. Jason’s earlier photos of his own engine gives you an idea of what sort of bits: traction-engines are more complicated than they first appear.

The existing boiler could be used as a basic “drawing” by the replacement’s builder, as it’s likely he’d already have the drawings and calculations for a close enough match. Though the cylinder and horn-plate mountings may need revising, among other things, leading to “one-thing-after-another”.

 

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Few observations from the latest info.  It is almost certainly a freelance engine.  Agree with other comments that the boiler as is, would not stand scrutiny against the standards required for certification on either the hobby or commercial route.

Nigel is correct that a fusible plug is a should have not a must have and I agree with comments from his boiler seminar that they are more trouble than they are worth in the smaller scales – often due to scale….

The comments on the “bolts” in the fire box though I am not so sure about.  I have seen stays used by a commercial boiler maker that are shouldered and threaded.  The hole in the outer wrapper as an obtuse example could be 5/8” the hole in the inner box 3/8 and possibly tapped.  The stay being 5/8” with a 3/8” thread on the end, inserted from the outside either screwed into the inner box to its shoulder with a lock nut inside or nutted with a copper washer then welded on the outer plate.  Screwed stays are very common in full size most commonly “set” or knocked up or the plate caulked round them and they don’t generally leak.  However if that was their purpose in this case, the spacing is not correct to achieve proper support.

There are no visible stays in the throat plate area of the firebox either.  Be interesting to see if there are stays in the back head to inner box and girder stays on the crown inside!

I am aware of several miniatures that have horn plates stitch welded.  The original design called for them to be bolted but as the bolts kept coming loose, welds were added.  Agreed not common, but not unheard of.

Agree using a hollow stay for a “blower” is unconventional for a TE but not a reason on its own to condemn the boiler.  Some miniatures do have the blower valve on the man stand!

Not sure the ring highlighted by Jason is actually the barrel.  If you look carefully I think the barrel is inside that and the bright ring is actually part of the smokebox.  If you look at what appears to be the nutted ends of the fastenings for the smokebox they sit closer to the tube plate on what I think is the barrel.  That said what I think is actually the barrel is not a lot thicker than the bit Jason scaled.

Why anyone would attempt to solder the tubes is beyond me, if they leaked then swage them up tighter.  Copper or cunifer tubes in steel boilers are not unusual but they are not tolerant and are prone to leaks especially if steam is raised too quickly due to unequal expansion.

Sadly whilst this boiler would probably hold pressure there are too many visible faults for it to achieve certification.  Anyone remember the black museum of steel boiler parts the Northern Fed used to exhibit?  Most of them came from a steel loco boiler and had various faults like cold lap, lack of fusion / penetration and poor joint design / prep.  While everyone held up their hands in horror at such failings it has to be considered that all these issues were only found when the boiler was at end of life and it had steamed for countless hours without exploding before it was finally cut up to reveal its secrets!  We have better standards now to reduce any such risk to negligible levels and that is a good thing.  This example has obviously been steamed and there is no information to confirm how many times, it may have only been once, a few times or it may have been steamed quite a lot and may have made its builder very happy when things were less well regulated! It obviously didn’t fail catastrophically when it was steamed but that may have been because the tubes leaked so badly it never got up to pressure!

If Bill wants to spend time and money sorting it out with a new boiler and making the missing parts I am sure it could be made to function, not a project I would entertain though, but each to their own.  What would be really interesting is knowing who built it, when and what facilities they had.  Someone obviously put a lot of effort into building it and it’s kind of sad it has ended up as it has.

Paul.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Regarding the rivits in the hornplates that Nigel mentions and particularly all around the bottom. They are just Dummies and do nothing. The ones around the bottom and edges replicate rivits on a full size engine and if done right the ones in the plate have their heads modified to look like dummy stays.

You may also notive four button heads and the remaining 5 hole sof a 9 hole pattern these are what hold the hornplates to the boiler sides via threaded hollow stays. The nuts and end of threads on the OP’s boiler are doing a similar job and if they are through the usual hollow stays then there should be no worry about leaks, below shows flush hollow stays on a copper boiler and then protruding ones on a steel boiler.

Other designers of models went with a different approach welding the hornplates which were an L shape directly to the boiler from the start or in addition to bolts.

Thinking about the hollow stay with the blower it is actually not a bad idea for a model as it would be far easier to use than stretching even further over the engine from a driving trolly to try and work a globe valve between cylinder and chimney particularly if it was intended to have a full length showmans canopy.

I’ll have another look at the thickness issue.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

There are some positives in this sad story, and though unlikely to steam again, I certainly wouldn’t recommend rushing to scrap the beast.

• It’s educational!  Provides much useful learning about the general layout of traction engines, construction detail (good and bad), how the motion works, safety valves, wheels, dynamo mountings, steel vs copper boilers, and what to look for in a second-hand engine.
• I guess this engine broke the original builders heart.  Looks as if he competently completed most of the engine before discovering serious boiler problems.   I suspect the engine was stripped down for repairs that proved too difficult and parts lost.   Whatever the reason they are missing, they could be replaced.  That the engine has no plans just makes it more difficult.
• Though running engines are highly desirable, this one could be tarted up as a static display. Apart from having one at home if there’s room, I’ve seen several examples decorating restaurants and shops.   Everybody loves steam engines!   Just not in tatty condition.  Good paint job and lots of shiny metal!

From what Bill has said, I don’t believe he has a workshop or the skills needed to fix or tart the engine up.  Yet!  Bill might be a new recruit!  Doing that kind of work is an enjoyable subset of Model Engineering, the only problem being the substantial investment of time and money needed if this isn’t the sort of hobby Bill enjoys.  Not for me even though I have a workshop and basic skills.

If Bill decides to walk away, the value of the engine in it’s present condition is low.   It’s a freelance with no documentation, a dubious boiler and missing parts.   An actual financial loss if someone has to be paid to take it away!  Zero if the owner has to take it to a recycling centre to get rid quickly because wifey blows a gasket.    Otherwise scrap price of the metal, measured by weight, not much.  More valuable sold as a doer upper, but only if someone is found to take it on. Although quite a few Model Engineers do restoration work, projects take quite a time to complete,  so new work is only taken on intermittently.   How much interest there will be is pot luck, ranging from none, because everyone is already fully committed, to a feeding frenzy if several happen to be looking for a new project at the same time.  A dealer might take it, expect even less money, otherwise advertise here, on traction engine fora, and on ebay.

If happy to do so, no pressure, be interesting to know how much Bill paid for the engine?   Valuing them is difficult at the best of times, and much depends on the purchasers ability to fix stuff himself.

Bill’s experience should help others.  At work I put up a sign “Let my shipwreck be your sea-mark”.

Sorry Bill if this is mostly disappointing news.  Everyone on here would much rather have identified your engine, found the plans, confirmed it was a easy fix, and had it quickly put back on the road.

Dave

[Bill MorganParticipant @billmorgan86057]

Gentlemen, thank you again for all of your detailed replies. When buying this engine I realised it would be a long shot at ever getting it steamed again, due to your amazing replies sadly this has been confirmed, however I at least now know where I stand with this engine. Due to work and many other projects I will not have the time to restore this engine, if I were a coded welder I may have put it under the bench and ‘got round to it one day’ but paying for a boiler to be made is not something I want to do along with the need for gears etc etc.

If it were a worthy project I would have found the space as it were, however as it is not a worthy project for me I will look to sell it on as an ornament, project, spares or repairs and hopefully someone with a knowledge of steamers will perhaps one day resurrect it, it is unfortunately a very sad end to someone’s project which they had obviously spent many many hours machining and building.

My kindest regards to you all, you are obviously a very knowledgeable and enthusiastic group of people that take the time to help the less knowledgeable which in my opinion is highly commended.

Bill.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

Another nail in the coffin, the boiler barrel scales as 2.4mm thick, about half what it should be for a 5″ steel boiler.

Jason,

You have have scaled the smokebox spacer ring that makes space for the cladding.

 

Isn’t the hollow stay blower feed Rail practise?

[Author]

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