Traction Engine Identification Help Please….

[Bill MorganParticipant @billmorgan86057]

I recently bought this model traction engine, there are certain parts missing and having spent some time with it I do now believe it is an unfinished project. Can anyone tell me what make/model of traction engine it is based upon and who may have made the casting kit for it, and, (yes, I know its a long shot), where I might obtain some drawings for it, any help would be greatly appreciated.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Provide some details. Wheel diameters, Height of top of chimney, distance between axles, diameter of boiler.

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

Can’t help much but the smokebox platform and the disc flywheel indicate a showman’s engine, but I thought that they were almost always compounds, so perhaps not close to a full scale prototype. Straked rear wheels  also seem unusual for this type of engine. Plenty of work ahead there. As said, sizes would be helpful.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

There are no features that scream out it is of a particular marque, but I am no expert. Large showman’s engines were as previously said more commonly compounds.  There were a few smaller single cylinder tractors that were used by showmen I think but the size of that dynamo platform suggests this was to represent something bigger than a tractor.  I can’t think of any published designs off the top of my head that might fit this.  I suspect this may be a freelance, certainly that firehole door is not a scale reproduction of anything I have seen.  I think you might get more luck posting this on traction talk, there are plenty of knowledgeable traction engine folk on there.

Paul.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The three shaft layout suggest it is more likely meant to be a Burrell than a Fowler and it certainly would not be the first model Burrell agricultural engine built up to look like a Showman’s conversion. If you read Plastow’s book there is a lot about “lion” which had the lesser spokes and strakes of an agricultural/tractor though that was a compound and had been converted to a Showman’s

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

It has the look of a showmans. The cylinder block with so many bolts/studs it puts me in the mind of a freelance. You know nothing of the engine, do you have the paperwork for the boiler, I take it of steel at this size, as without that it could prove difficult to get a boiler certificate and be able to steam her. At this size it may well need a commercial ticket and be costly.  I would investigate this matter before spending any money on what could be an interesting project. The advice of a boiler inspector should be sought. Good Luck. N

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I don’t know traction-engines well enough to differentiate between makes, but some general details stand out as evidence of a freelance design. And yes, there certainly are “some parts” missing, not least the transmission-gears and (apparently) the differential.

 

So what suggests free-lance, making it hard to determine what if anything was its source?

– The cylinder looks too clearly fabricated, and I have never seen so many studs around a cylinder saddle. Nor the cylinder end covers: 6 or 8 studs is correct for that.

– The eccentric rods’ blocky design is all right functionally but not prototypical Edwardian practice. The full-size versions, on any engine, were usually forged and machined in one piece, with elegant, large-radius fillets.

– Nor would there be such a (relatively) large space between the eccentric sheaves. Instead they should be snuggled up together and one or both rods are cranked through their web lengths to meet the expansion-link. Otherwise the motion is fair to type, with an elegant motion-bracket too.

– The crank webs seem a bit too rectangular but that may be an optical illusion. A few other parts look a bit too squared-off for realistically replicating an actual machine, as well.

– As Paul points out, that fire-door is not at all prototypical, but I have seen similar on miniature railway locomotives, probably made that way for easier operation. The fire-hole on some miniature traction-engines is not the most accessible of things! It normally swings through a horizontal arc, and in full-size but not always on models, usually includes a rotary top-air damper.

 

Its builder has clearly put a lot of effort into this engine but as others say, I think it probably freelance. Though it may well have elements or components from published miniature designs or directly replicating various full-size engines.

Some full-size, agricultural traction-engines were converted to showmen’s trim by subsequent owners, so that hefty great dynamo bracket is not entirely “wrong” although to my eye, slightly over-scale.   The larger, purpose-built showmen’s road-locomotives were normally compounds and generally but not universally fitted with rubber tyres, especially in later years, because they did not venture across farm-land. (I am not sure, but I think it might also have become compulsory.)

 

As for the boiler, yes, it should be of steel at this scale but not intrinsically demanding commercial testing provided its history is known. Your difficulty is that unless it is known, most club boiler inspectors are likely to be reluctant to certify it. It is allowable but would have to be treated as a “new” boiler, and probably with the cladding removed so the general state can be assessed. Club boiler inspectors do not have, and are expected not to try using, acoustic thickness-testing instruments and the like, a professional pressure-vessel tester may use.

Presumably it has never been steamed anyway, or only lightly as a builder’s construction test. Examine it carefully to see if it bears any serial-number or other identifier, from which it might be traceable via the MELG scheme. I am only guessing from the somewhat “barn find” patina that the boiler might pre-date the Pressure Equipment Regulations, “certified” steel and CE-marking – but those rules apply only to commercially-built boilers, not ones made privately.

Where to look for any identifier? Favoured places are on the back-head, perhaps throat-plate, at foundation-ring level, the back-head at the top; and possibly (but hopefully not) the smokebox tube-plate. Some builders are kind to boiler-inspectors and fit a visible but discreet serial-number plate on the external crown in the vicinity of the spectacle-plate.

There is nothing to stop you testing the boiler according to the normal scheme and using it yourself in your garden at you own risk; but you cannot certify it yourself, and would not be able to use it in public – including model-engineering club events open only to the club’s members and personal guests.

 

Good Luck with it: it deserves to be completed but I fear it may not be easy.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

IF it is a model of a traction/showmans engine from one of the big makers then a study of the works of Michael Lane should enable you to identify it. I would A, warn these books are NOT cheap, B, I would start with “The story of St Nicholas Works” ( Burrell), Then “The Story of the steam plough works” (Fowler ), there are at least 3 other volumes as well. These cover the major manufacturers but there are many minor makers, Savage, allchin Etc.

Ronald H. Clarke – “The Steam Engine builders of Norfolk” is another source of info, this includes the 3 engines by John Collins, an unlikely candidate !

Assuming it is Half scale (6″) then a study of the dimensions of the major components, it’s general look, and the above books may give some leads. Who offers 6″castings ? The basic design will rule out many so the list may not be huge. Good Luck. Noel.

PS is the cylinder block fabricated ?

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

I don’t think it’s 6” scale.  My Savage 6” scale 5t light tractor is almost 8’ long and weighs in around 1000kg.  That’s only about half the length of a 6” Burrell showman’s.  My 4” scale Ruston SD light tractor (also a 5t machine in full size) is around 4’6”” long and is around 250kg and that is a similar ratio to a 4” Burrell.

The pictures appear to show the OP’s sat on a lifting table so dependent on prototype it is probably 3” if based on a large showman’s road loco or maybe 4” if a showman’s tractor.

As the OP has not come back with any dimensions as requested by others I don’t think this is going any further.

Paul.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Give the chap a chance. He only posted his request last week and may be like me, not living permanently on t’Net.

I’m not sure it’s a model of a “known” design, but is freelance, and rather looks as if based on a general-purpose engine “repurposed”, as they say these days, to showmen’s use.

I would agree on the approximate scale but without actual dimensions or even something to give scale in the photographs, it is hard to estimate.

 

I hope the rather gloomy prognostications so far have not deterred him!

 

 

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Someone once mentioned in a book an engine with many smaller strakes, just like this one has, maybe an Aveling?

Where’s the winch, brake drum, gears, second shaft, gear shift, steering gear and water pump, hopefully in the garage behind.

50% finished.

Plastow parts may fit, though if it’s a 4″ big machines are needed as well as the appropriate wallet.

[Bill MorganParticipant @billmorgan86057]

Gentlemen, thank you all so much for taking the time to reply to my initial posting, as you have all no doubt realised I am a novice with regards to Traction Engines being more of an IC man.

I have now taken some photos with measurements, the boiler diameter works out to 5.4″.

Having shone a torch in both ends of the boiler I can confirm that it is made of steel and looks to be silver soldered which I assume would be correct for this size of boiler? I will have a closer look and see if there are any numbers stamped into it.

There is some soot in the chimney so I can only assume it has been fired in the past, unfortunately I have no history whatsoever for it, the guy I purchased it from had got it for free from a garage clearance some 20 years ago, he knew less about it than me and had only ever used it as an ornament, I paid very little money for it so it may well end up as an ornament again, however being a trained machinist and having a love of old machinery I would like to continue to explore potentially finishing this engine, I DO realise this would be many hours of work.

So, general consensus seems to be that this is a freelance engine, that’s ok, I can cope with not being a purist on this project, if my newly posted photos with measurements helps with any identification that would be great.

One reply mentioned the lack of differential, could you enlighten me on this please. With my very limited knowledge I thought TE were one wheel drive until the second wheel was engaged  or locked to the axle with a pin, I realise the components that the wheels would be locked to are missing, are these parts referred to as a differential?

I will leave it there for now but will no doubt have more questions going forward, your help would be very much appreciated.

Bill.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The sizes would put it at the small end of 3″ scale, particularly a sit looks like it is based on a tractor rather than a larger engine. Think 3″ scale mini compared to a 3″ scale Volvo estate.

Your boiler is more likely 5″ ODas you are measuring over the cladding and usually insulation.

At 5″ a steel boiler is not common and will not be that good at firing. Also silver solder is not usual with steel boilers, they are welded and the fire tubes either welded or expanded into place. If expanded then the tubes may be copper even though the rest is steel

If it is a steel boiler then unless you can come up with design calculations, prove the quality of welds and find a boiler inspector happy to accept those then it is not really going to be viable as a working engine.

If it is infact a silver soldered copper boiler then if calculations can be done you may stand a bit more chance of getting it tested and certified. Scratching the paint off the backhead to see what is below would be a simple way to check for copper.

Some engines have a diff others don’t. Those without a diff often ran with drive to just one wheel when doing tight manovers but in heavy ground could add a pin into the lobe on the hub which gave drive to both  wheels. When the winch was in use the drive was removed from both wheels so just the winch drum was driven by the axle. As it is a free lance I would say the diff was left off for ease of construction, similar to the basic Minnie traction engine, they run fine without a diff and are simple to make. Ploughing engines never had diffs.

This is a traction engines diff

This is the winding drum on it’s “drive ctr” which is keyed to the axle. When driving along the drive pin from in the hub’s lobe engages in one of the six radial slots so drive goes to the wheel. When winching that pin is removed so the axle just spins in the hub and the detent at the top drives the drum. Your wheels also look to be missing their bearing shells.

[Bill MorganParticipant @billmorgan86057]

Fab, thanks for the clarification on the diffs etc, that explains a lot. Please excuse my ignorance but which part is the backhead?

Regards, Bill.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It is the name Given to the rear of the boiler, the flat part where the firehole door is and where the water gauge bosses are.

Another way to get an idea of construction is to remove the ash pan and have  alook at the “foundation ring” from underneath, this is the bottom of the recrangular firebox where you will hopefully be able to see two layers of metal and an infill. You sould be able to see if the joints are welded or silver soldered. It will also give an idea of the thickness of metal used on the boiler. Typical thickness of approved designs at 5″ dia would be 10g about 3mm for copper and around double that if steel to allow for corrosion.

[Bill MorganParticipant @billmorgan86057]

Thanks again Jason.

Regards, Bill.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Gears are your major issue. The wheel sizes come close to the Reeves 2000 Thetford Town 2″ @ eye watering prices and also the Haining class V single plougher 2″ or Superba which both use the same gears of 8DP though 4 shaft engines and not 3.

There are drawings for Superba in pdf loose on the internet.

You could mock your gears in ply or mdf and see how close they come or remake your horn plates for Haining shaft centres.

Either way the normal crank gear has 12 or 13 teeth.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Gears need not cost that much, the smaller pinions can be be bought from the likes of BearingsOnline or the far eastern market places and modified to suit. Larger I would consider getting waterjet cut including the teeth, many a model and full size engine running on “as cast” gears ( as image above) so a good quality waterjet or even laser that does not leave a draft angle would do the job. Or just cut from a slice of bar or disc cut out of plate rather than expensive castings and cut your own gears.

As for tooth count, many models just used the same DP throughout, those that are more correct to original used different DP on the various matching pairs. As an example my 2″ fowler has 6, 8 and 10DP. With the 10DP on the crank and seconds haft you don’t get the problems of undercutting that you would with less larger teeth.

Should not need a wooden mock up. measure the ctr to ctr distances of the shafts and then work out the PCD of the gears.

But I would not think about anything else until you have established if the boiler is usable.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Forgive me, I was somehow fooled by the background into thinking this engine was much bigger, YES I would think it could be a 3″ scale,and may be freelance now there are some dimensions. I always think it is so sad when a model like this, having got so close to completion is not finished. As with any live steam model – the boiler is the important part, by far the most expensive,and more so now than ever. Yet with out it’s paperwork if copper there is a sporting chance of getting it certified but if steel really little chance at all. I know, I have one ! Is it a copper boiler ? put a magnet round inside the the firebox or round the backhead or front tube plate, NO attraction ? if no then your luck is in.

Using an 1.5″ Burrell 6Hp agricultural as a guide, rear wheels 8″ front wheels 5″ and chimney height 16″ (in round figures ). As Jason has said, if based on a real engine it must be a small one for 3″scale as the above figures should be roughly doubled for yours.

With so much of this engine done it would be worth building a new boiler in copper if it was steel, though it would cost many £100s to do it at home and maybe £3000 to have one made. The most obvious parts missing are the gears/transmission, these could be made but easier bought once one has worked out the sizes.

Good Luck and keep us posted. Noel.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It’s a bit of an odd size. If you took a Burrell gold medal tractor and they did make them in single cylinder then wheels would be 10 and 15″  but only 6.5 and 10″ if a 2″ scale model. My 2″ Fowler is based on a larger original and has wheels of 7″ and 12″.

Bolier diameter at 5″ would put it in the BB1 Ploughing engine size at 2″ and it is certainly not based on something that size. But 5.5″ would be about right for a 3″ tractor.

Other options are 2.5″ scale, maybe even doubled up from an old Bassett Lowke or Avery design as they did some in 1.25″ scale. Or more likely as it is a free lance it could well just be proportioned to what was to hand in the way of wheel material and boiler tube or based on the largest diameter the builder could machine.

I’m not sure it is an unfinished project. If you look at things like the end of the crankshaft it is not as discoloured as other parts, oil staining on eccentrics & big end plus the fact you can see soot. More likely it was taken apart at some time maybe to try and get it going, repair or repaint and the parts have been lost as it has changed hands.

[Bill MorganParticipant @billmorgan86057]

Crikey, this is all very interesting stuff, with regards to the gears a friend of mine has access to a water jet cutter so getting gears made shouldn’t (underline, underline) be too much of an issue, as you Gents have said its really about the boiler at this stage. Please could you tell me why a copper boiler is preferable to a steel boiler, is it simply  because copper doesn’t rust? If a copper boiler were to be made would this be silver soldered or swaged as mentioner in an earlier post? and do you need to be qualified to make a boiler that needs certification or is it a case that a boiler just needs to pass the boiler inspection? From what I have read about this so far this is quite an expensive process….

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Most club boiler inspectors feel happier inspecting a copper boiler than a steel one as in the loco size scopper is far more common.

A steel boiler either needs to be welded by a welder who has the appropriate certificates or if you are competent an inspector may accept proof that the weds have passed non destructive testing. Ideally you also need material certificates sbut that possibly would not apply to an old boiler.

Copper these days is usually silver soldered and that can be done by the home builder. Tubes are usually silver soldered in place on a copper boiler. very old designs may be rivited and caulked with soft solder and new designs could be tig welded but again the welds or welder need to be certified. You do not have to have qualification sor be certifie dto make a silver soldered copper boiler.

On a practical side the additional thickness of material needed for a steel boiler does not work well in teh smaller sizes. If you look at the plans I posted of the foundation ring and imagine the two sheets are double the thickness then the area for the grate will be reduced in area so you have less heat so the boiler won’t fire as well. This make sit harder to raise a fire and you will be having to attend to the fire even mor ethan you do with a copper boilered engine of similar size.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

On the gear front my 2″ Fowler has eight gears in total. 3 were done with modified commercial gears, three turned and cut from cast iron bar and the larger two used castings. If I was doing it now the smaller of the two I would make from bar but probably use the casting for the large final drive as that includes the diff pinion mounts etc.

 

You will also need a worm & wheel for the steering.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

One other thing with getting a boiler certified.

If it is made to or can be shown to be closely based on existing published designs then your boiler inspector should not need to see any calculations.

If it is a new design or built to an unknown one as in this case then you will need to provide some calculations mainly to show that the material thicknesses are adequate for the intended working pressure and that any stays to the flat surfaces are both of sufficient cross section and spacing to adequately support the plates and stop them ballooning out.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

A useful book possibly still in print (Try TEE Publishing) is the NTET reprint in 1978 of Steam Road Vehicles, by J.M. Meyrick-Jones (L.M … on the title-page). This was originally published for the owners and drivers of traction-engines and steam-wagons when those vehicles were in their commercial hey-day, decades before any were preserved. It outlines their mechanical principles, operation and maintenance, using quotes from various manufacturers’ drawings. them. Though for the full-size vehicles the principles are the same in miniature.

 

You don’t need to go scratching paint off to identify the boiler’s material: use a magnet, not on the cladding of course but on an exposed area such as the backhead, foundation-ring or smokebox tubeplate. Of those it’s likely only the backhead is painted anyway. Place the magnet as far as possible from obvious steelwork like the smokebox barrel and the horn-plates (the two massive plates that flank the firebox and hold all the “works”)

In any case it’s likely any boiler tester may want the cladding removed, almost certainly so if the boiler is known or suspected as of being steel, so as to inspect the general build quality and condition of the boiler. Then the material will be visibly steel or copper, albeit perhaps with a bit of cleaning.

The advantage of a copper boiler over steel is that it is not going to rust away. The disadvantage is that it needs be stronger mechanically for a traction-engine than a railway locomotive of comparable scale because it is also the vehicle’s chassis! (Unlike on locomotives and most steam-wagons, in which the boiler is mounted within a chassis that takes all the loads).

 

I respectfully disagree with the comments that imply a steel boiler will not steam well in the more modest sizes. Yes it can; but this does depend heavily on the area of the grate, as Jason explains. The difference in thermal conductivity and heat losses within the metals, might not be particularly significant.

From your photographs with the tape-measure, and giving the shell diameter, this engine’s boiler seems significantly longer, but not otherwise far different in size from that on my 7-1/4″ gauge locomotive, a double-sized version of the Juliet design.

This engine’s original, steel boiler (built incidentally by a professional welder but before all the materials certification stuff) steamed perfectly well; and possibly with a narrower grate than on this traction-engine.

It lasted some 20-odd years before a mixture of corrosion and – unrealised by anyone – choked fire-box “water-legs” between 1/4″ thick plates did it in.  Even then it still managed to perform fairly well, and in fact expired in service by developing a small leak in the firebox wall, fortunately extinguishing the fire and preventing any catastrophic failure.

Not recommended but also unexpected, and this was really before much attention was given to adding corrosion-inhibitors to miniature boilers’ feed-water.

Similarly, our society’s steel-boilered “Wren” loco, perhaps nearer this traction-engine in dimensions but also possibly with a short boiler, also steams well; almost too well at times. And yes, we do use water-treatment.

.

Gears: although most of the gears on a traction are shrouded by guards, enough is visible to show they are of quite coarse teeth and often crossed out (spoked): see Jason’s own photographs. Commercial gears are available, with plain plates and pilot bores intended to be modified for the intended use, and using such stock gears is common industrial practice. They are not very cheap, but possibly cheaper than buying ones made specifically for particular model designs.

However you decide to construct the gearing, you are constrained by what has been already made, so the starting-point is careful measuring of the shaft centres as already set out. The gears are likely to be of Imperial sizes, specified usually in DP format, and may need some juggling of centre-distances and likely ratios to arrive at the correct diameters and pitches.

.

As evidence mounts I begin to think this traction-engine was completed but later partially stripped down for some reason we cannot now know, and the removed parts subsequently lost. Though it’s also feasible that it was steamed incomplete to test the boiler and engine itself, before the transmission was made.

…..

So, adding to others’ advice, I would remove the cladding and establish the condition and suitability of the boiler before anything else.

As far as I can determine the club scheme would not ban using a steel boiler outright just on unknown provenance, if it was built before the Pressure Equipment Regulations 2000, but the boiler would need inspecting and testing very carefully as if it is “new”, in the words of the Good Book (the MELG* guidance).

Club boiler inspectors are given the right to refuse to test a boiler, or to seek a second opinion, if they feel unhappy about it, as may happen here. In which case you’d probably need ask a professional boiler inspector who’d be able to examine the state of the welds and any significant corrosion. If it passes his examination, you ought be able to have it tested in future under the MELG scheme that covers most model-engineering societies, but you cannot mix the two certifications in one test.

Note that this test is only of the boiler, not the mechanical parts of the vehicle and state of completion; with one important caveat.

The full test is in two parts: 1) cold inspection and hydraulic pressure-test of structural integrity; 2) test under steam to ensure the correct setting and working of the pressure-gauge, safety-valves and feed-water arrangements. At least two feed systems are needed; normally an injector and a mechanical pump on a traction-engine. Those are prototypical but some miniatures are also fitted with a hand-pump. (I know two model traction-engines whose equivalent is a battery-powered electric pump on an auxiliary water-tank in the driving-truck.)

So although the boiler’s structure can be examined and hydraulically tested cold, the caveat is it will need the pump and injector fitting before any steam-test; and on a traction-engine the pump is driven from the crankshaft, directly or via a reduction-gear.

——

*MELG. Model Engineering Liaison Group.

This links the two model-engineering society federations, the 7-1/4″ gauge Society and a few other groups to produce a cohesive boiler-testing code agreeable and acceptable across the hobby and to the legislators and insurers.

The code, given in a manual of the requirements and test procedures, is readily available from those groups and should be at least in any model-engineering club’s library for members’ reference. As an engine owner I also have my own copy.

It is revised from time to time, and the new edition given distinctly different cover colours to indicate it as the latest: currently orange type on white background.

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