Toyota Hydrogen

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by ChrisLH on 11/06/2023 16:40:19:

Years ago I was paid to look into hydrogen powered aircraft (at a very basic level). What came out was that to achieve equivalent long range to existing aircraft the fuselage needed to be doubled in diameter to contain the liquified hydrogen. No room fo passengers and no account taken of the additional weight for the extra fat fuselage and its ncessarily robust construction.

The point I'm making is that, if we just look at earthbound vehicles, hydrogen, even if pressurised to the point of liquifaction, requires significantly more space and structure than current fuels to contain it.

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… and yet it is claimed [whether truly or falsely], at about 05:10 in the video that I linked, that Toyota’s H2 can travel up to 300miles on 5kg of Hydrogen.

MichaelG.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 11/06/2023 17:46:58:

Posted by ChrisLH on 11/06/2023 16:40:19:

Years ago I was paid to look into hydrogen powered aircraft (at a very basic level). What came out was that to achieve equivalent long range to existing aircraft the fuselage needed to be doubled in diameter to contain the liquified hydrogen. No room fo passengers and no account taken of the additional weight for the extra fat fuselage and its ncessarily robust construction.

The point I'm making is that, if we just look at earthbound vehicles, hydrogen, even if pressurised to the point of liquifaction, requires significantly more space and structure than current fuels to contain it.

.

… and yet it is claimed [whether truly or falsely], at about 05:10 in the video that I linked, that Toyota’s H2 can travel up to 300miles on 5kg of Hydrogen.

MichaelG.

And at STP H2 is 0.09g/l so 5kg = 55,555 litres A pretty big tank. Even liquid is 0.078 relative density so 64 litres for 5kg, That does not include volume of the cryogenic insulation……

Robert.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Thats 21 MPG for liquid Hydrogen

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 11/06/2023 17:46:58:

Posted by ChrisLH on 11/06/2023 16:40:19:

Years ago I was paid to look into hydrogen powered aircraft (at a very basic level). What came out was that to achieve equivalent long range to existing aircraft the fuselage needed to be doubled in diameter to contain the liquified hydrogen. No room fo passengers and no account taken of the additional weight for the extra fat fuselage and its ncessarily robust construction.

The point I'm making is that, if we just look at earthbound vehicles, hydrogen, even if pressurised to the point of liquifaction, requires significantly more space and structure than current fuels to contain it.

.

… and yet it is claimed [whether truly or falsely], at about 05:10 in the video that I linked, that Toyota’s H2 can travel up to 300miles on 5kg of Hydrogen.

MichaelG.

Hydrogen has nearly 3 times the calorific value of petrol, so this might equate to 100 mpg. I see no reason why it should be more efficient, it's still a combustion engine, so perhaps optimistic

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

The plot thickens …

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MichaelG.

 

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Noting, of course, that Toyota is only claiming 300miles on 5kg for the little engine, not the V8

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/06/2023 21:45:04

[ChrisLHParticipant @chrislh]

As an aside, in the film they mention that hydrogen has an effect on the exhaust note if I interpreted the transatlantic accent correctly (increasing the frequency ?) Is this related in any way to the squeaky effect on the human voice of inhaling helium (just for fun) ?

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 11/06/2023 17:25:51:

Posted by Maurice Taylor on 11/06/2023 16:06:08:

Posted by Hopper on 11/06/2023 15:17:32:

…

Hi ,when hydrogen was piped into houses from the 1830s to the 1970s ,I don’t think it used to leak from the pipes.

Maurice

 

Well coal gas leaked a bit, but the point is well made. Beware jumping to conclusions!

Faulty opinions grow because humans can only see the world through the narrow slot of our personal experience. And, oblivious there might be a problem with our view point, we tend to believe that our severely limited personal experience is the be all and end all, even when it's obviously wrong.

Strange that many believe Hydrogen to be technically challenging today when it was commonplace in British homes for well over a century. Whilst domestic gas systems don't use it now, Hydrogen has always been common in industry,who store and use in huge quantities. Hydrogen is far from being a novelty.

When considering futures I strongly recommend asking the right type of engineer. Mechanics know precious little about Chemical Engineering, and Chemists are unlikely to be good at designing electric motors. And choose engineers carefully, preferring those who work from facts and evidence.

Treat old-school doubts with grave suspicion when discussing new technology. Whilst a middle-aged engineer who says existing technology can't solve new problems is probably right, the same chap asserting new technology won't work is usually wrong. History proves it!

Dave

Concerns about hydrogen leakage if it becomes as ubiquitous as petrol are not opinion, It's science. **LINK**

 

Edited By Hopper on 12/06/2023 01:51:02

[Ches Green UKParticipant @chesgreenuk]

Concerns about hydrogen leakage

Yes, there does seem to be a potential issue regarding Hydrogen leakage, if it is used on a large scale.

Here's an article on sealing Hydrogen equipment …. https://www.oemoffhighway.com/engines/article/22418740/parker-hannifin-corp-designing-a-leakfree-system-with-hydrogen

Anyway, the publishers of the report, Columbia/SIPA's 'Center on Global Energy Policy' have some interesting 'partners' …. https://www.energypolicy.columbia.edu/about-us/our-partners/

Ches

[PS: Maybe the gas fed to houses in the 1830s also leaked but the users didn't notice and/or were not informed.]

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Lots of town gas pipes had joints sealed with 'tow', which is unravelled old rope. With the low pressure, high water content gas it worked fine. Then we got dry North Sea gas and they upped the pressure, so the joints dried out and leaked. When I'm out walking the dog on a still day I often smell gas. Keeping hydrogen in the pipes will be even more difficult. I've read somewhere that Germany is working on converting hydrogen to methane as there is some limit to how much hydrogen can be mixed in the gas main. It sounds daft to convert gren electricity into gas, but I think it makes sense. You can store gas, burning it for space heating is very efficient, and a lot of hydrogen is used for making fertiliser.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Ches Green UK on 12/06/2023 09:07:29:

Concerns about hydrogen leakage

Yes, there does seem to be a potential issue regarding Hydrogen leakage, if it is used on a large scale.

Here's an article on sealing Hydrogen equipment …. https://www.oemoffhighway.com/engines/article/22418740/parker-hannifin-corp-designing-a-leakfree-system-with-hydrogen

Anyway, the publishers of the report, Columbia/SIPA's 'Center on Global Energy Policy' have some interesting 'partners' …. https://www.energypolicy.columbia.edu/about-us/our-partners/

Ches

[PS: Maybe the gas fed to houses in the 1830s also leaked but the users didn't notice and/or were not informed.]

 

 

 

Yes that is the point re past and present use of hydrogen. There is leakage, but as the article points out, measurement of it has been limited and action even more so. One study cited found a leakage of hydrogen passing through a simple pipe to be 2 per cent. Other studies cited project that leakage in a complex mass hydrogen production plant full of compressors and pressure vessels etc plus distribution would be about 5.9 per cent. Not a huge problem at current production levels, but could be massive if hydrogen becomes as ubiquitous as petrol is now.

Yes interesting that the centre has such a wide range of sponsors/"partners" including several fossil fuel companies who are among the main proponents of hydrogen because it will give them a ready market for the natural gas that is turned into hydrogen, a more appealing option to them than solar power etc which they would not be able to cash in on.

Plenty of other scientists are concerned about hydrogen's action as an indirect greenhouse gas, EG LINK

The other issue is that it takes more energy to produce hydrogen than the hydrogen then produces in a vehicle, so overall energy consumption will increase with hydrogen.

None of these are necessarily insurmountable problems but do add to the timeframe and the cost of converting to a predominantly hydrogen energy economy, which is often not taken into account by its proponents. There may be a reason that Toyota alone among major car manufacturers is backing hydrogen over EVs while all the others favour EVs.

Edited By Hopper on 12/06/2023 09:31:11

[Ches Green UKParticipant @chesgreenuk]

Duncan,

Interesting point about the drier, higher pressure in the pipes.

Whilst on the subject of Germany, they will get hit hard by the move to EVs – https://recruitonomics.com/the-decline-of-car-manufacturing-is-hurting-the-german-economy/ The German car manufacturers are now doing everything they can to delay the inevitable, but I feel they will lose.

I thing the internal combustion engine is a magnificent example of how humans can invent and develop a very useful device over many decades, but it does have it's drawbacks.

Ches

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Hopper on 12/06/2023 09:29:53:

[…]

There may be a reason that Toyota alone among major car manufacturers is backing hydrogen over EVs while all the others favour EVs.

.

It is said that ‘Racing improves the breed’

… Toyota certainly appears to be on that mission: **LINK**

https://www.engadget.com/toyota-unveils-a-hydrogen-race-car-concept-built-for-le-mans-24-hours-182939823.html

MichaelG.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

That's another reason manufacturers maybe are keen on EV's: manufacturing costs will eventually be so much lower than ICEs with the lack of moving parts in an electric motor compared with an ICE.

The ICE is a magnificent example of human inventiveness as you say, and I love them dearly – got two sheds full of them – but we have to admit they are now a 100+ year old technology so it may be time for them to go the way of our beloved steam engine, into the history books and the the enthusiast collector societies and museums.

If the German car manufacturers want to survive they will need to do what the horse carriage and buggy makers did circa 1900 and adapt to the new technology. Then the locomotive manufacturers had to do it at the end of the steam era mid-20th century. Nothing stays the same forever.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 12/06/2023 09:46:43:

Posted by Hopper on 12/06/2023 09:29:53:

[…]

There may be a reason that Toyota alone among major car manufacturers is backing hydrogen over EVs while all the others favour EVs.

.

It is said that ‘Racing improves the breed’

… Toyota certainly appears to be on that mission: **LINK**

https://www.engadget.com/toyota-unveils-a-hydrogen-race-car-concept-built-for-le-mans-24-hours-182939823.html

MichaelG.

Yes there is no doubt about the value of racing in the development of street vehicles. Plus the old "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" philosophy is tried and true.

But the big challenges with hydrogen are on the mass supply side rather than the final consumer side.

Toyota is also doing a lot of interesting work with hydrogen fuel cells to power EVs. LINK This combines the "clean" fuel of hydrogen with the mechanical simplicity of an electric motor rather than an ICE, and massively reduces the size of the battery needed to power the electric motor. Bit of a win-win all round.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Hopper on 12/06/2023 01:47:57:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 11/06/2023 17:25:51:

Posted by Maurice Taylor on 11/06/2023 16:06:08:

Posted by Hopper on 11/06/2023 15:17:32:

…

…

Well coal gas leaked a bit, but the point is well made. Beware jumping to conclusions!

…

Concerns about hydrogen leakage if it becomes as ubiquitous as petrol are not opinion, It's science. **LINK**

The linked paper is entitled 'Hydrogen Leakage: A Potential Risk for the Hydrogen Economy'. It discusses the possibility that leaked Hydrogen will extend the lifetime of existing greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. The risk is that the damage already being caused by greenhouse gases will be extended. It doesn't say Hydrogen is a greenhouse gas. The risk is cleaning up the mess caused by burning fossil fuels will take longer than expected unless leaks are reduced. I think we all agree that stopping leaks is a good thing!

The paper suggests 3 ways of tackling leaks and calls for more research. It's the start of the scientific process, requiring more evidence – work needs to be done. It's not a red-alert call for Hydrogen to be banned, and it definitely doesn't suggest fossil fuels are an alternative.

Some figures are given. Current production of Hydrogen is stated to be 90,000,000 tons per year, of which 90% is Gray (made from fossil fuels). In 2050 production is expected to be about 570,000,000 tons per year, of which 97% will be Green and Blue. (Blue is Gray Hydrogen plus Carbon capture, a process that doesn't just dump effluvia into the air.)

Developing new technology is always hard work, often taking several decades to deliver. Nothing is ever easy, so : when a problem needs to be solved, engineers have to get stuck in. Needs an open mind because old methods rarely fix new problems, especially when the old way is problem!

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 12/06/2023 09:58:35

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Yes it is a matter of "concerns" rather than bans etc at the moment. But sorting it all out will delay the introduction of hydrogen, unless they just continue to ignore the issue.

Another issue is raised with "blue hydrogen" as the carbon capture schemes it relies on have been found to be highly problematic also. Some of them flat out do not work. Others have found to be not as good as predicted. Others have been found to be fudging their figures. So lot of work to be done there too. LINK https://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/2021/07/20/top-5-reasons-carbon-capture-and-storage-ccs-is-bogus/

So much money is involved in this stuff that there is a lot of smoke and mirrors surrounding it.

Edited By Hopper on 12/06/2023 10:24:00

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

Did anyone follow the Guy Martin TV series about Electricity Generation in the UK?

It was a very informative, especially the bit where we cannot use all the Wind Farm energy because the Grid would melt. Thus we are paying for them not to generate, as this is cheaper than renewing the Grid. Yet they are still planning to build even bigger wind farms.

The burying of the old Wind Turbines was another big No No in my book. Apparently the newer ones are degradable.

An approach on one of the Scottish Isles is the way to go. Use excess wind generation to go into storage batteries and Hydrogen generation, the latter is later used to generate electricity for use on the Island.

All in all a very good series.

Regards

Gray,

[Ches Green UKParticipant @chesgreenuk]

A bit of light relief regarding EVs -v- ICE pollution …. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ8zePnOlF8 … there may be a longer version somewhere on YouTube.

Her heart is definitely in the right place but, as others have mentioned here, to have credibility one needs to have a reasonable understanding of the subject.

Still, I suspect there is no such thing as bad PR …so at the end of the day she has probably achieved way more than she had hoped when she kinda aggressively knocked on his car window.

Ches

Edit: It's almost too good to be true….I don't think they are actors, but the two of them should start their own TV/YT series on various environmental subjects

Edited By Ches Green UK on 12/06/2023 10:41:45

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Posted by Graham Meek on 12/06/2023 10:34:04:

Did anyone follow the Guy Martin TV series about Electricity Generation in the UK?

It was a very informative, especially the bit where we cannot use all the Wind Farm energy because the Grid would melt. Thus we are paying for them not to generate, as this is cheaper than renewing the Grid. Yet they are still planning to build even bigger wind farms.

The burying of the old Wind Turbines was another big No No in my book. Apparently the newer ones are degradable.

An approach on one of the Scottish Isles is the way to go. Use excess wind generation to go into storage batteries and Hydrogen generation, the latter is later used to generate electricity for use on the Island.

All in all a very good series.

Regards

Gray,

One of the problems is planning issues

These are big permanent projects and if you get planning permission… you build it, even if it can't be connected

In 2, 3 5 10 years planning may be refused or investigated or an inquiry

So you get it up and 99% of your planning issues disappear

If our planning system wasn't so medieval then things would be far more sensible

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

Posted by Ady1 on 12/06/2023 10:47:20:

One of the problems is planning issues

These are big permanent projects and if you get planning permission… you build it, even if it can't be connected

In 2, 3 5 10 years planning may be refused or investigated or an inquiry

So you get it up and 99% of your planning issues disappear

If our planning system wasn't so medieval then things would be far more sensible

Hi Ady,

The ones Guy was talking about were out in the North Sea. I not sure Planning permission applies out there, but I might be wrong?

Regards

Gray,

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

You need planning permission for the onshore infrastructure, without which the turbines cannot connect to the grid and so are into chocolate fireguard territory. Ideal place for turbines is up hills, but put pylons up there? Wash your mouth out, you have to bury the cable, but if you're up a hill the soil could be very thin, so that's a non starter as well, unless you fancy blasting a trench through rock

[paul Longley 1Participant @paullongley1]

From a truly alternative perspective, just consider for a moment, where would we be now, if there never was public power generation??? What if the ‘country house’ lighting sets were as far as we ever got, the local garage having a DIY generator for wireless batteries. Quite a few technicians or home mechanics created their own sets pre-war. If each household and every business was responsible for their own power production, would the current problem (unintentional pun) be a more simple issue, or a lot worse? On one hand, there’s a few properties here in East Sussex not far from me that don’t have mains supply of any sort, electricity has to be generated by DIY wind turbine, and Lister CS startomatic. Some years ago I read about swimming pools using a gas engined generator for power and waste heat from exhaust and cooling to heat the pool. Also I believe there’s still a tomato producer in Kent running a gas engine from biomass fermentation, the exhaust is piped into the growing area , the engine drives the generator for lighting and supplementary heat and air management.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I live in an urban area, so a small scale windmill isn't going to work, and anyway there is precious little wind here today, and solar doesn't work at night, so if I had to generate my own electricity I'd use a diesel engine, and as it's small scale it would be quite inefficient compared to a proper power station. Might get away with it in the cold winter months as I could use the waste heat to warm the house, but for most of the year I'd be pumping out a lot more CO2, NOX and particulates than I would by relying on the grid.

Edited By duncan webster on 13/06/2023 00:02:23

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

Surely, Duncan, you would generate from solar and store into batteries for nights and cloudy periods?

Regarding planning permission and pylons: I have always wondered why 'they' don't put a modest horizontal wind turbine on top of every electricity pylon? The pylons already exist, so no planning permission required, and they offer an easy distribution network.

There must be thousands of electricity pylons already in place.

[Author]

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