Toyota Hydrogen

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

.

To prompt a Sunday morning discussion

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

**LINK**

[Ches Green UKParticipant @chesgreenuk]

I think the Japanese car manufactures and their Government went all-in on Hydrogen a few years back. They are finding it very difficult to do a 180 on that decision.

Hydrogen may have it's uses eg in larger vehicles such as those JCB make. But my limited understanding is that Hydrogen is expensive to turn in to a compact, transportable fuel.

My main hope is to remove the highly toxic fumes that belch out of the exhaust pipes of ICE cars in to our streets, homes and then lungs, and if EVs or Hydrogen power stops that, then great.

BigOil has known for many decades the health hazards their products cause but has kept quiet – profits come first.

We will still have the issue of particles from tyre rubber and brake dust (to a lesser extent) getting in to the air we breathe, but at least one of the main health hazards will be gone.

Ches

PS: A link to the hazards of fossil fuels ….

Oil firms knew decades ago fossil fuels posed grave health risks, files reveal
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/18/oil-industry-fossil-fuels-air-pollution-documents

Edited By Ches Green UK on 11/06/2023 09:17:16

[lee websterParticipant @leewebster72680]

I remember watching a tv programme about hydrogen powered cars decades ago. The film showed water dripping from the exhaust pipe, with a man holding a cup under the pipe to catch the water before drinking it. My first thought was the water must have tasted disgusting, my second thought was with millions and millions of these cars pumping out water laden exhausts, the roads would be constantly wet, which could be a hazard. Especially during the winter. We might have to have our wipers on all the time. And what would the effect be on the atmosphere having millions of gallons of water evaporating day and night?

After all that, I still prefer the idea of a hydrogen powered car over an electric one, because being the owner of a vintage car, it might be easier to convert it to hydrogen than electric.

[Clive SteerParticipant @clivesteer55943]

I think most internal combustion engines are only moderately efficient with very little recent attempts at improving this. The overall end to end efficiency of a vehicle with a ICE powered by hydrogen will be pretty low but this isn't mentioned in the video except by the remark of using "green" or surplus electricity. However if ways are found to use this source of "surplus" energy, as I'm sure it will, then the benefits will be greatly reduced.

CS

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

@Lee: All ICEs produce copious amounts of water, hydrogen fuel won't be any worse than petrol in that regard.

[paul Longley 1Participant @paullongley1]

Wether we use LiFepo4 , hydrogen, or similar, these are just different types of energy storage. Batteries have to be charged, hydrogen has to be created. The principal point is we’re moving the bulk of pollution production to a controlled environment to lessen impacts on our own environment. Cummins engines company are investing billions into developing hydrogen production, storage and supply infrastructure, wether it’s used for IC or fuel cells is for the future. Either way, at the moment it looks like batteries for local and hydrogen for long distance. However we mustn’t forget that in about 1895, everyone was sure that cars for use around town would be electric, and long journeys would be steam cars ( albeit petrol or parrafin fired) but by 1900 IC petrol was dominant. So we shouldn’t assume there’s not another way. Shifting tack a little, on a radio interview a couple of years ago, on the subject of national energy use and emissions, a point was made that replacing all fossil fuel in housing, transportation and industry would require a doubling of our electricity generation, but if we used hydrogen in place of lpg ,natural gas and diesel, using electricity for only cars and light vehicles, then we would need to triple our electricity generation, at that time. Obviously new processes get developed when the demand is sufficient, but a contemporary report also suggested that processing hydrogen from lpg produced 9 tons of carbon for one ton of hydrogen 😖 it was better environmentally to burn the lpg in a vehicle. There’s a lot of work to be done, and what works in one country may not work in others, vehicle development is accelerating, we changed from horses to horseless carriages, I think the next change will be no less subtle 🤔🤔🤔

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Modern cars are fine, quite amazing really, especially the diesel ones considering what they used to be like

The real problem is fanatics trying to hijack the common sense and impose their own whacky agendas

They even go on about rubber tyre pollution, the dust from road tyres for goodness sake

I also notice that eco "protesters" only do dumb stuff like annoying the general public and throwing paint at an oil companies head office, it's like someone pays them to stay away from the real polluting places like Felixstowe which is basically importing 100 million tons of coal a year

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Even hydrogen engines need lubrication oil. So I'm going to invest in a whale fishing boat and mackerel lines for smaller engines like motorbikes. For high performance engines I will start a sugar plantation (should soon be warm enough in Devon) to make caster sugar to make castor oil (yes I do know)

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Posted by Ady1 on 11/06/2023 11:00:36:

…

…..They even go on about rubber tyre pollution, the dust from road tyres for goodness sake

I also notice that eco "protesters" only do dumb stuff like annoying the general public and throwing paint at an oil companies head office, it's like someone pays them to stay away from the real polluting places like Felixstowe which is basically importing 100 million tons of coal a year

According to several sources tyre wear produces several times (some say up to 1000x) more particulates than tailpipes. I guess the tyre fairy must go about clearing up after your car? And according to official government statistics, NO coal was imported through Felixstowe in 2021. It is in fact a container port IIRC.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Felixstowe: A container port importing goods produced by burning around 100 million tons of coal a year

Felixstowe: A major artery aiding and abetting the global coal burning industry

…and not a single eco warrior to be seen at its gates… funny that innit

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

deleted….got carried away to the point of nearly blowing a fuse..

Edited By John Rudd on 11/06/2023 14:15:09

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

I noticed an advert for some new Nissan which I think is showing some backtracking from the 'all electric' nonsense.

Their slogan was along the lines of 'Fuelled by petrol, driven by electric'. I had to smile.

Looking for a new car recently, I was taken by some of the Mazda range. I like their common sense approach of keeping the engine & drivetrain fairly simple, with no great emphasis on turbo's or electric, but using traditionally sized, normally aspirated engines, with four cylinders.

That's my idea of heaven.

Martin.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by John Haine on 11/06/2023 08:02:04:

**LINK**

Only to be debunked a day later in the same publication Rowan Atkinson is wrong about electric vehicles

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

And were does all that lovely clean-burning hydrogen come from? Largely it is made from natural gas or it can also be made from water by splitting H20 into Hydrogen and Oxygen. Both processes require huge amounts of electricity. So unless they set up enough solar panels and wind turbines to power the hydrogen processing plants, hydrogen will be made by burning coal to make electricity to make hydrogen.

There are major problems with storing and transporting hydrogen on a mass scale because the molecules are so small they can pass through steel pipes and tanks, and simply laugh at pipe flanges and gaskets as they pass merrily by. And new research indicates hydrogen could be many times worse for the atmosphere than Co2. Interesting article on these problems with hydrogen here Leaky hydrogen a climate risk

Hydrogen does have strong support from the fossil fuel industry, because it is a huge market for their natural gas.

Edited By Hopper on 11/06/2023 15:19:29

[PeroParticipant @pero]

Ahh. So many comments, so many mis-statements. A bit more scientific rigour please gentlemen.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Pero on 11/06/2023 15:28:19:

Ahh. So many comments, so many mis-statements. A bit more scientific rigour please gentlemen.

How about a bit of scientific rigour in specifying what you regard as mis-statements, and why, and some evidence to back up your statements?

[Maurice TaylorParticipant @mauricetaylor82093]

Posted by Hopper on 11/06/2023 15:17:32:

And were does all that lovely clean-burning hydrogen come from? Largely it is made from natural gas or it can also be made from water by splitting H20 into Hydrogen and Oxygen. Both processes require huge amounts of electricity. So unless they set up enough solar panels and wind turbines to power the hydrogen processing plants, hydrogen will be made by burning coal to make electricity to make hydrogen.

There are major problems with storing and transporting hydrogen on a mass scale because the molecules are so small they can pass through steel pipes and tanks, and simply laugh at pipe flanges and gaskets as they pass merrily by. And new research indicates hydrogen could be many times worse for the atmosphere than Co2. Interesting article on these problems with hydrogen here Leaky hydrogen a climate risk

Hydrogen does have strong support from the fossil fuel industry, because it is a huge market for their natural gas.

Edited By Hopper on 11/06/2023 15:19:29

Hi ,when hydrogen was piped into houses from the 1830s to the 1970s ,I don’t think it used to leak from the pipes.

Maurice

[Neil AParticipant @neila]

I seem to remember that one of the problems of burning hydrogen directly in a conventional style internal combustion engine was keeping the temperatures in the cylinders less than about 1300 degrees celsius. Above this temperature the combustion starts to produce NOX. Someone may correct me on the temperature. So this is not as easy an option as it appears to be. This problem was encountered on the attempts to produce a Stirling Engine powered car. The hydrogen fuel cell does not seem have this particular problem.

As others have said, the real problem is producing the hydrogen in the first place. Then comes trying to store it without all those leaks. Solve those little issues and you might, only might, be on to a winner.

I'm not holding my breath and at my age petrol and diesel will probably see me out, but I watch the developments with interest.

Neil

[ChrisLHParticipant @chrislh]

Years ago I was paid to look into hydrogen powered aircraft (at a very basic level). What came out was that to achieve equivalent long range to existing aircraft the fuselage needed to be doubled in diameter to contain the liquified hydrogen. No room fo passengers and no account taken of the additional weight for the extra fat fuselage and its ncessarily robust construction.

The point I'm making is that, if we just look at earthbound vehicles, hydrogen, even if pressurised to the point of liquifaction, requires significantly more space and structure than current fuels to contain it.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Maurice Taylor on 11/06/2023 16:06:08:

Posted by Hopper on 11/06/2023 15:17:32:

And were does all that lovely clean-burning hydrogen come from? Largely it is made from natural gas or it can also be made from water by splitting H20 into Hydrogen and Oxygen. Both processes require huge amounts of electricity. So unless they set up enough solar panels and wind turbines to power the hydrogen processing plants, hydrogen will be made by burning coal to make electricity to make hydrogen.

There are major problems with storing and transporting hydrogen on a mass scale because the molecules are so small they can pass through steel pipes and tanks, and simply laugh at pipe flanges and gaskets as they pass merrily by. And new research indicates hydrogen could be many times worse for the atmosphere than Co2. Interesting article on these problems with hydrogen here Leaky hydrogen a climate risk

Hydrogen does have strong support from the fossil fuel industry, because it is a huge market for their natural gas.

Edited By Hopper on 11/06/2023 15:19:29

Hi ,when hydrogen was piped into houses from the 1830s to the 1970s ,I don’t think it used to leak from the pipes.

Maurice

 

It did. The amount is small. But enough escapes on large scale installations to be a concern, as outlined in the linked article.

Read the article before you dismiss it out of hand on the basis of one anecdotal example.It does say that in past installations leak testing and monitoring did not go past levels related to immediate safety concerns (ie explosions) and was not relevant to current huge-scale proposals and current knowledge of its other risks to the atmosphere etc. Things have changed since the good old days.

 

 

Edited By Hopper on 11/06/2023 17:15:08

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Maurice Taylor on 11/06/2023 16:06:08:

Posted by Hopper on 11/06/2023 15:17:32:

…

Hi ,when hydrogen was piped into houses from the 1830s to the 1970s ,I don’t think it used to leak from the pipes.

Maurice

Well coal gas leaked a bit, but the point is well made. Beware jumping to conclusions!

Faulty opinions grow because humans can only see the world through the narrow slot of our personal experience. And, oblivious there might be a problem with our view point, we tend to believe that our severely limited personal experience is the be all and end all, even when it's obviously wrong.

Strange that many believe Hydrogen to be technically challenging today when it was commonplace in British homes for well over a century. Whilst domestic gas systems don't use it now, Hydrogen has always been common in industry,who store and use in huge quantities. Hydrogen is far from being a novelty.

When considering futures I strongly recommend asking the right type of engineer. Mechanics know precious little about Chemical Engineering, and Chemists are unlikely to be good at designing electric motors. And choose engineers carefully, preferring those who work from facts and evidence.

Treat old-school doubts with grave suspicion when discussing new technology. Whilst a middle-aged engineer who says existing technology can't solve new problems is probably right, the same chap asserting new technology won't work is usually wrong. History proves it!

Dave

[Chuck TaperParticipant @chucktaper]

Solar –> Generate Hydrogen –> Combustion Engine –> Generate Electricity –> Motion

Solar –> Battery –> Motion.

Perhaps we should ask our A.I. overlords.

Regards.

Frank C.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Hopper on 11/06/2023 15:45:42:

Posted by Pero on 11/06/2023 15:28:19:

Ahh. So many comments, so many mis-statements. A bit more scientific rigour please gentlemen.

How about a bit of scientific rigour in specifying what you regard as mis-statements, and why, and some evidence to back up your statements?

I think perhaps he's referring to exchanges such as these:

>>…..They even go on about rubber tyre pollution, the dust from road tyres for goodness sake

>According to several sources tyre wear produces several times (some say up to 1000x) more particulates than tailpipes. I guess the tyre fairy must go about clearing up after your car?

[Author]

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