Towing on an A frame

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

Not really a vehicle restoration – actually a new build model of a steam lorry to 7" to 1' scale – which comes out about the size of a small car 4' wide, 9' long and about 6' high and around 1200 kg.

Anyway, I am considering towing this beast to rallies on an A frame. I just wonder what the legal aspects might be. It seems the A frame / towed vehicle is treated as a trailer at law, but would the combination not then need a trailer IVA test? Having said that at least one company sell a DIY A frame kit with no mention of IVA tests on their web site.

Probably simple enough when towing a modern car, but satisfying regulations becomes ever more difficult as the towed vehicle gets older.

In the case of my lorry, the brakes are VW beetle backplates, hydraulics and shoes, back axle is quite a lot of Suzuki Jimny, front axle is new build. Tyres are 2CV. There are lights fitted – equivalent to a trailer lighting board and they satisfy the regulations. I am a bit concerned about mudguards which definitely don't satisfy modern requirements (no lip to retain spray). I am aware of a few other issues that could be readily rectified to satisfy the IVA manual.

Any thoughts / experience / horror stories / encouragement would be most welcome. Particularly anybody towing older vintage vehicles on an A frame.

Martin

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

Legal issues

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

A 2CV weighs less than 1200Kg with 4 wheels.

[DC31kParticipant @dc31k]

See:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

SIMPLE ANSWER IS – DO NOT DO IT !!!! yOU DO NOT MENTION THE WEIGHT ? It is a can of worms, unbraked single axle 750 Kg, 2 axles I doubt it is what would be called close coupled. Will the steering follow ? You may find your over weight, train weight. depending what you tow it with your driving licsence may not cover you, tachgraph regs, and so it goes on. In the good old days I covered 1000s of niles with a recovery truck,and vehicles on the HOOK. My advice=- buy a GOOD trailer and a vehicle that can safely tow your vehicle with power enough !

Having had the undivided attention of a traffic officer with a fine toothed comb on more than one occasion whilst driving a rebodied car or towing large trailesr, it can spoil your day. Noel.

[Robert ButlerParticipant @robertbutler92161]

Use a trailer, why run the risk of finding out. Reduces wear and tear on the axles and steering of your model. Covered trailer keeps the model dry and road crud free. Watch towing weight as the trailers permitted gross weight must be within the manufacturers stated towing capacity. The same considerrations I suspect apply with an A frame.

Robert Butler

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

I bought one of these new to tow cars from insurance write off yards. Never actually used it. Keep meaning to put it on ebay. But when bought 2 years ago i checked with DVLA & then it was a gray area , with no actual law on their use. May have changed now.

Steve.

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

I would suggest that since the steam lorry is being built from scratch, the facilities for towing with an A frame can be designed in, so there's no issue with the 'age' of the vehicle. Remote brake operation, breakaway operated braking, light connections and correct steering can all be designed in right from the start. You say that it'll weigh about 1200 kg, and that's well in the range of a towable vehicle or trailer, so long as the brakes, lighting, construction etc. comply with the requirements for both vehicles and (with A frame) trailers. It's going to have to have an Individual Vehicle Approval test because you are towing/using it on the road, but that'd apply to any one-off traction engine steam lorry used on the road.

I am not a lawyer or a vehicle type approval expert, but I don't see any problems so long as all the I's are dottet and the T's crossed.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

You could fit discreet brackets to hold trailer-type mudguards for towing, but overall I think I'd rather tow the model on a trailer, even if something similar to a boat trailer, perhaps fitted with a simple, lightweight floor to keep the underside of the lorry clean.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Just to butt in again, but i have quite a few friends who have Traction engines. One has just finished recently his 6" scale Burrell traction engine, which is very heavy. Weight not known but all of them use enclosed box trailers. They are all 4 wheeler type with braking on all 4 wheels.

2 Have Foden steam lorries & again use the 4 wheel enclosed box trailers.

Another thing to be very careful of is these things get stolen on a regular basis , so hidden is better.

Ok got my coat on.

Steve.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

IF you go for a trailer make ABSOLUTLY sure you have the right weight rating of tyres fitted for the load, this also applies to the steam vehicle. Noel

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

The trailers my friends use have 6 ply tyres fitted. Commercial. From memory they have between 55 & 65 psi in them. Do not use regular car tyes which are only 4 ply.

Steve.

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

Thanks for all the replies.

To clarify a few points, the tow vehicle is a Fiat Ducato motorhome and there is plenty of weight to spare for the proposed tow, either on a trailer or A frame. The 2Cv tyres are near the limit on weight, but the steam lorry has been weighed (both axles), so I am Ok there. The trailer IVA test manual does allow for car tyres, provided weight rating is satisfied.

I think Steviegtr might be thinking of the strap on style of A frame, but I have in mind the type jof thing made by Towtal or Car a tow for motorhomers, which has solid (20 mm pins) connection to the towed vehicle.

The steam lorry is not subject to IVA testing as a vehicle as it can only go at 15 mph, but may well be subject to IVA as a trailer. It just happens to have been designed with 60 mph running gear.

Thanks again,

Martin

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

My brother has recently had a car professionally modified to tow on an A frame behind his motor home, the A frame operates the cars hydraulic brakes and a socket was fitted under the bonnet to connect the towing vehicle's lights to the car lights, Structurally the car had strengtheners fitted to the chassis to fit the A Frame.

Martin P

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Martin

If you are planning any rallies abroad a trailer will be needed, "A" frame towing is not legal in many European countries.

With a 1200kg load on a trailer + trailer weight will put you close to if not over the MGW of the Motorhome plated weight.

Emgee

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Looking at the link provided by DC31K, the DOT's view is that the towed vechile has to be road legal. If you are claiming no IVA because of 15MPH top speed, you can't A-frame tow it at 60 MPH. It's one or the other.
It is also obvious to me that the mud-guards would have to be complaint to currnet standards.
That, like all guidance here, and the .gov link, is just htat, guidance. The final decidision is down to a court of law. Do you want to go there?

I did something similar about 16 years ago with a gas turbine engine (aircraft airstart compressor and AC generator). I put it on a ex-MOD Sankey trailer chassis to tow behind a 4×4. The Sankey dis not meet the new trailer requirements, but as I bolted the engine to the chassis it became "mobile plant" which is a differnt set of regulations which it met at that time.

Robert G8RPI.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 18/09/2022 10:59:15:

Looking at the link provided by DC31K, the DOT's view is that the towed vechile has to be road legal. If you are claiming no IVA because of 15MPH top speed, you can't A-frame tow it at 60 MPH. It's one or the other.

.

Succinct

MichaelG.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 18/09/2022 10:59:15:

Looking at the link provided by DC31K, the DOT's view is that the towed vechile has to be road legal. If you are claiming no IVA because of 15MPH top speed, you can't A-frame tow it at 60 MPH. It's one or the other.
It is also obvious to me that the mud-guards would have to be complaint to current standards.

That's exactly what we were told about A-frames and spec lifts when I worked as a recovery driver: if any of the wheels are on the ground, the towed vehicle needs to be road legal – registered, insured, MOTd and taxed. If it doesn't have any of those, it needs a full lift on a trailer or truck. Flat towing something the size and weight of a model traction engine is a very bad idea, especially if it's not designed or built to exceed 15mph.

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

A couple of replies.

Emgee – yes I understand the Spanish (in particular) do not share the UK view on A frames. With regard to weights, I certainly endorse your general warning to check, check and check again. In this case I have a 3500 kg GVW motorhome with about 200 kg to spare when we are fully loaded. The vehicle is plated as 6500 kg gross train weight, leaving 3000 kg spare. So a 2000 kg gross trailer still leaves us well on the right side of the law. Another balancing act that gets forgotten is to keep the nose weight as high as possible (100 kg plated on my towbar) but keep the axle weights within limits (2100 kg FAW and 2400 kg RAW in this case). Quite how the average Joe is supposed to check that all that is satisfied I will leave to everybody's imagination.

Nicholas W – That is very useful information and your background gives that some weight. Just to clarify, the engine in question is a lorry with the underpinnings and brakes designed to cope with 60 mph. However the engine and boiler are most unlikely to propel it at more than 15 mph, hence the get out on the IVA as a self powered vehice.

I think the general consensus is that A frame towing could give a lot of problems. At the very least, I would need to get the A frame / lorry combination IVA'd as a Class 2 trailer. The only test station in Scotland is Edinburgh and a 320 mile round trip. It could result in multiple trips to rectify issues as found which would start to get quite expensive or impossible.

I certainly have some concerns that my welding might be fine to amble round a rally field but could be a liability at 60 mph down a dual carriageway. Not entirely sure I want to find out.

The other side of the coin is an A frame eliminates about 400 kg of trailer, eliminates the need to securely strap a lorry down to a trailer, although coupling up the A frame obviously needs care but is probably less prone to error than getting 4 wheel straps and couple of chocks and the noseweight spot on.

Thanks to all again, I hope airing some of the issues about transporting large chunks of machinery have been useful to others.

Martin

[File HandleParticipant @filehandle]

I have often wondered why no one has designed a mobility scooter that can be towed. I suspect that some of the reasons have been aired above.

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

the tow vehicle is a Fiat Ducato motorhome ……….

I have a 3500 kg GVW motorhome with about 200 kg to spare when we are fully loaded. The vehicle is plated as 6500 kg gross train weight, leaving 3000 kg spare. So a 2000 kg gross trailer still leaves us well on the right side of the law. Another balancing act that gets forgotten is to keep the nose weight as high as possible (100 kg plated on my towbar) but keep the axle weights within limits (2100 kg FAW and 2400 kg RAW in this case).

A bit late WRT this posting – I was abroad in a 3.5 tonne Fiat Ducato based motorhome when it was posted & I couldn't face typing a reply on my phone.

I appreciate that the original question has been answered, but would be interested to know what model Martin's motorhome is, as the numbers quoted don't tally with any of the 4 off 3.5 Tonne Ducato based motorhomes (and one Ford) I have run over the past 15 years.

My current van is a Carado T339 – a 7 metre van on the Fiat "low profile" camper chassis frequently used on 3.5 Tonne vans. This has a front axle limit of 1850 kg , a rear axle limit of 2000 kg & a maximum train weight of 5500 kg, giving a maximum trailer weight of 2000 kg – same as the 2 previous vans I have had on this chassis. This chassis can be supplied plated to 3650 kg without any modifications & uprated to 3850 kg with the addition of air assistance to the rear axle. I have only added a towbar (type approved Memo unit with a 75kg nose weight limit) and a solar panel installation to the base vehicle (no awning, sat dish, aircon unit etc.), yet I am usually running at or within +/- 50kg of 3500 kg total (well in on both axles) as checked on the local West Yorks Trading Standards axle weighbridge at the start on most outings (it is only a few minutes from J1 of the M621 & FOC, so no inconvenience to check).

Martin's axle weights & max train weight suggest that his van is running on the Fiat "heavy duty" chassis, usually used on vans that run in the 3850 – 4500 kg range with a 2000 kg towing limit. While heavier vans can be "down-plated" to run as 3500 kg, from postings I have read on various forums these tend to struggle for usable payload as they are are larger / heavier vans to start with, so "200 kg spare when fully loaded" seems a bit strange ?

As Martin stated, it can be challenging to run a 3500 kg van legally – as I have not managed to run at anything like his figures on 5 different vans from 4 different manufacturers, I would be very interested to find out how he does it !

Nigel B.

[Ebenezer GoodParticipant @ebenezergood76202]

Towing it will on an A frame will mean that it arrives at the show filthy, rusty and stone chipped, I'd want to put in a box trailer to keep it clean, dry and chip free.

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

My understanding is the vehicle will need to be have all the relevant tax, MoT and insurance for its taxation class (where applicable) even if it never turns a wheel under its own power. If the wheels are touching the road then it needs to be fully road legal, A-frame or otherwise. Discovered this with track day cars.

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

Thought I better respond to the latest few posts.

mgnbuk doubted the axle weights and gross train weights I quoted. I can only say that I went and read them off the plate that sits on the beam just above the radiator. My vehicle is actually badged as a Peugeot boxer and is a panel van conversion on the XL chassis option. It has air assist rear suspension but it is plated at 3500 kg GVW. All I can say is that a friend with a 6" scale Foden used the same model to tow that and he had come to the conclusion that if you want to do some serious towing, then choice was distinctly limited. I suspect that many of the coachbuilt motorhomes use the Alko rear chassis, which might well impose limitations of it's own. I also checked the V5 for the van, but that does not quote a MGTW. One thing we can all agree on is "Check it before you take to the road". We checked our van weight fully set up for touring at the local tidy tip who conveniently had a weighbridge at entry, with display readily visible – far cheaper than paying for a public weighbridge ticket which is meaningless after a few days anyway. We were both cycle tourists for 20 years before caravanning, so travelling light has become natural.

Ebenezer recommends a box van. Well they are made that big, but attract a hefty price and are physically quite heavy which would lead to other problems. The lorry will travel open to the elements – it was designed to take it's chances that way. There is no exposed machinery to get rusty as it is all in a sump. A tarpaulin (like you see on the front of some caravans) should keep the worst of the stones and muck off.

Jon Lawes raises the issue of tax, MOT and insurance. Tax is zero, but nevertheless I presently have to trot down the post office to do the deal on the current steamer. A steam tractor is MOT exempt. Insurance is available (on production of a boiler test cert and cash) from specialist insurers like Walker Midgley. So those boxes are easily ticked (and will be anyway). The obstacle is that it would not be road legal above 25 kph. HOWEVER, the government document quoted by DC31k in his post of 17/9/22 says that when an A frame is attached to a vehicle the assembly becomes a trailer. So, if the assembly is a trailer, then provided it passes the IVA test for a trailer it would be road legal at higher speeds (but not as a self powered vehicle). As I said at the outset, the chassis, brakes, wheels, lights, mudguards with a bit of work etc. would all pass that test, albeit with some hassle no doubt.

Having said all that, I have now made the decision to tow it on a trailer – K.I.S.S. principle rules.

Thanks again to all those that chipped in,

Martin

[OldironParticipant @oldiron]

 

Fiat Ducato motorhome towing capacity

 

Fiat Ducato Towing Capacity & Weight

Car Make & Model	Max Towing Capacity – Braked
Fiat Ducato 2.3 JTD (2009)	2500 kg
Fiat Ducato 2.3 JTD Minibus (2007)	2000 kg
Fiat Ducato 2.8 JTD (2008)	2000 kg
Fiat Ducato 2.8JTD Minibus (2007)	2000 kg

	Later models may be different

Edited By Oldiron on 06/10/2022 18:07:14

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