Total cost + import for Tormach PCNC 440, and alternatives?

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

I foolishly looked at Naomi Wu's YouTube channel and think I am now mentally scarred for the rest of my days … what did come to mind however were two things …. support and support and I think that is where Tormach scores.

Going to have a lie down in a darkened room.

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

I know, Alan, what on Earth was she thinking, choosing the LNC6800 controller option! What a shocker.

[Nick HughesParticipant @nickhughes97026]

From personal experience with my Syil X5 Plus, I would suggest staying as far away from Syil as possible.

The X and Y Axis were not perpendicular to each other by approx 0.8mm over the Y axis travel of 160mm.

The cause was abysmal machining of the Saddle, with obviously no QC at the assembly stage:-

Then there was the Fore – Aft and Left – Right leaning of the column (Z Axis), again caused by crap machining and the comical scraping, that appeared to be done with a hammer and chisel, to disguise the angle grinding bodging:-

As the spindle was also not parallel to the Z Axis, again by a considerable amount, i ended up re machining almost everything and in conjunction with a precision Granite Square, managed to get everything geometrically aligned to within 0.01mm.

Not to mention the total lack of support from both Syil UK and Syil China (although to be fair, I think Syil UK suffer from the same problem with Syil China).

Nick

Edit:- Because the base casting is so flexible, I had to mount the machine on to a cheapish granite surface plate, before then mounting it back on to the stand, to prevent twisting as it was bolted down:-

Just to rub salt into my wounds, it came with an X4 Control panel cover rather than X5, that due to the support issues, took 12 months to get a correct replacement (It took 6 months to get a replacement saddle).

Edited By Nick Hughes on 10/01/2021 14:33:14

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Wow, Nick, that looks horrendous. I guess it was a while back. And they are using linear rails now, so I wonder if they have improved in QC. However, that said, if that lack of QC was ever permitted to be the norm, then it is a concern I concede.

[Nick HughesParticipant @nickhughes97026]

My X5 has linear rails (The X4 has dovetails), you can see them in the 3rd and 4th photos. The first photo of the saddle, is the edge that aligns X Axis Carriages and therefore controls the X – Y alignment (the other side has the same method for the Y axis Carriages and was fine).

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Ah I see, I wasn't looking carefully enough. Sorry, it is clear to see, I was being dim.

I wish I could afford a machine made in the West! Who's to say a Tormach would be better? Literally, I have been told my machine would come off the ship direct from China to my house. Nobody in the USA or UK will get to even open the box. It's a worry.

Edited By Steve Dunthorne 1 on 10/01/2021 15:47:56

[Anonymous]

Posted by Steve Dunthorne 1 on 10/01/2021 11:55:58:

Please can I have your honest opinion on the merits of both and whether this is a factor I should bear in mind.

I think that most commercial CNC machines use linear ways. There are several reasons. One, they're cheaper to install. On any moving parts there's stiction and friction. Stiction is how much force is needed to get the parts moving as opposed to keeping them moving. Linear ways have very low, if any, stiction. So they're good for professional machines with high feedrates and even higher rapids. Not sure there's much advantage at the lower speeds on hobby machines.

I don't know anything about Syil machines, although they don't seem to get good reviews on CNCZone. I've always found Tormach tech support to be helpful and reasonably responsive, although I haven't used them recently.

Andrew

[Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114]

I've had my Syil X7 running without problems for a couple of years now, one of the things which encouraged me in the decision was the involvement of UK based Emvio Engineering as the UK agent, customer service has been outstanding.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Is there more than one Emvio as they don't seem to have any CNC machines listed?

[Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114]

Posted by JasonB on 08/02/2021 20:28:40:

Is there more than one Emvio as they don't seem to have any CNC machines listed?

Syil maintain their own site for their UK product offerings but Emvio Engineering are the current UK agent for Syil, it used to be some box shipping outfit but now things are much different.

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

In the end, I plumped for a Tormach machine which I have had for just over a year now, and ended up writing about the whole experience. Just Google my name the the words book and Tormach and you should be able to see. It really is a lovely machine and I highly recommend it to anyone thinking of starting out in cnc like I was.

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Posted by Steve Dunthorne 1 on 07/05/2022 21:54:45:

In the end, I plumped for a Tormach machine which I have had for just over a year now, and ended up writing about the whole experience. Just Google my name the the words book and Tormach and you should be able to see. It really is a lovely machine and I highly recommend it to anyone thinking of starting out in cnc like I was.

I would have thought with all the help you received by members in this forum you could have posted a few details of your experience with the Tormach machine here.

I am interested to know but not so much as to pay your book listed price as I have no intention of ever buying a Tormach machine.

Emgee

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

This seems to be a common problem, the forum gives advice and very few ever say thank you or tell us how it all worked out. I certainly won’t be buying his book either.

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

I want to express my deep sorrow some have felt the need to be so negative about what I have accomplished. It certainly was never, and never will be, my intention to cause any offence.

I have engaged with others on this forum in other threads, where I have been keen to learn, and keen to share what I know. I am passionate that CNC machining at the hobbyist level should not just be about older generations in their garages, but also be inclusive, aiming to attract the younger elements too. This country needs it!

When I used to go to the exhibitions (in particular, the ones at Alexandra Palace in North London, and Harrogate in Yorkshire) it was absolutely apparent this hobby is dominated by older men, a group in which I count myself, by the way. But I wish it wasn’t that way.

Despite my age, I chose to embark on a ‘mini’ mission to find out about CNC and learn as much as I could. I scoured the internet for information, on forums, YouTube, Amazon books, Google in general, to find out as much as possible. If I came across a mention of a book which might have been of interest, then I jumped at the opportunity to ‘consider’ buying it. In fact, I did buy quite a few ‘real’ books to help me. I wouldn’t have thought, “oh how disgraceful this chap has spent a lot of time putting some information into a book which is aimed at newbies to try to help their potential new journey into engineering but I want nothing to do with it”, I would instead have thought, “wow, that must have been quite hard work, I might want to look at that”.

The publisher of my book set the RRP, but you will find Amazon do their own thing and the selling price today is nowhere near the RRP. So, in fact, to a potential newcomer to OUR hobby, it might just be the book they needed to hook them in, at a surprisingly low price. The more who join us, the merrier I say.

But it is clear this book is not aimed at seasoned and disgruntled old men, who know all there is to know about milling, and wish to keep it a closed shop. No, absolutely it is not. In fact, anyone who knows about it can CHOOSE not to buy it if they wish. That’s the beauty of choice. I find it hard to fully appreciate how my four lines of text, (no spelling mistakes, no swear words, no grammatical errors even, and the possibility this book might be of use in bringing more talent into our hobby), can have caused any offence whatsoever.

Hopefully my four lines of text has not offended everyone. Maybe, just maybe, someone might find it of interest. Perish the thought.

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

+1 to that

[Chris CourtneyParticipant @chriscourtney72250]

Tormach have appointed a UK agents. I think you will find that all enquires for machine purchase in the UK are now referred to them. This was certainly the case when I purchased a Tormach 1100M last August. The agents handled the importation and delivery.

Chris

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Yes, they are CNC Machine Tools Ltd, Snetterton, Norfolk, UK

The MD is Mr Edd Clapham

It was they who supplied my machine. They were very helpful.

[Chris CourtneyParticipant @chriscourtney72250]

I’m glad to hear you had a positive experience with them. I have to found the experience of dealing with them somewhat frustrating, but they did come through in the end.
I am really pleased with the mill, it has performed extremely well. I don’t know if you eventually decided on a touch probe, but I did buy the Tormach touch probe. David Loomas (look for xoomspeed online or on YouTube) supplies a kit to convert it to wireless operation which makes using a touch probe a real pleasure. He has a number of other add ons for Tormach mills which you might find interesting.

Chris

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Chris, I have a colleague who imported a 440 through them last year and had delay troubles with poor communications from them, I think it would be fair to say. I know there has been some staffing problems, with the sales engineer they employed having left. And I think it’s reasonable to appreciate there has been shipping issues from China following the ‘covid era’. Nonetheless, I too have experienced some issues with emails not being answered, which is a shame.

When I had my 770MX delivered in April 2021, I had a bit of an issue with a one inch step up into my garage from a driveway, which would have been all but impossible to ‘ride’ a fully loaded pallet truck over. I mentioned this to Edd Clapham and he asked for a drawing which I supplied. He had his people make a welded steel ramp which fitted my step exactly, and this arrived with the delivery. It worked perfectly.

There was no charge.

In short, I think they want to be brilliant, but if they don’t answer their emails, the goodwill will evaporate. That’s my take on things. HTH.

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

And thanks for the Loomas tip. I was aware, but have not gone down the route of wireless yet. However, I do use the Tormach passive probe, which I find superb. The difficulty with it however, is it is fairly important to ‘be careful’ with it, and you cannot afford for it to get bashed about. Tormach make no allowance for where it might be put when not in use, but still plugged in. I 3D printed my own holster for it, which keeps it safe. But I can obviously see the advantage of the wireless version.

I don’t think I would leave it in the auto tool changer though, as you soon run out of tool options anyway. The 440 has eight tool positions, the 770 ten, and the 1100 twelve.

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Posted by Steve Dunthorne 1 on 08/05/2022 14:58:34:

But it is clear this book is not aimed at seasoned and disgruntled old men, who know all there is to know about milling, and wish to keep it a closed shop. No, absolutely it is not. In fact, anyone who knows about it can CHOOSE not to buy it if they wish. That’s the beauty of choice. I find it hard to fully appreciate how my four lines of text, (no spelling mistakes, no swear words, no grammatical errors even, and the possibility this book might be of use in bringing more talent into our hobby), can have caused any offence whatsoever.

The first sentence in the above statement is far from the truth and will earn you no respect.

Emgee

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Please permit me to remove the first four words. Then it becomes the absolute truth. I ought not have claimed clarity. My bad.

[James LairdParticipant @jameslaird56408]

Hi Steve,

I have unfortunately discovered that I too am of the older generation and I am now getting into model engineering and a cnc machine. I converted my Warco WM18 and its fine but it's only been fuel for the fire!

As a result I am in the middle of going through a purchase of a Tormach 1100MX from Connor at CNC Machinetools.

It's going well and I expect to have the details nailed down when I'm ready to buy in a few weeks.

Your book arrived last Friday and I for one am enjoying the content.

Its EXACTLY the book to read prior to spending any significant amount of cash on a personal CNC, So thanks for the time and effort spent writing it, I suspect you will save me a fair bit of time and money as a result of your efforts/experiance.

As a side note there will be a CNC converted WM18 going for sale shortly if anyone is interested.

James

Edited By James Laird on 07/06/2022 10:50:04

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

Steve, maybe you could do a summary of your book as a post here or as a new thread? I would certainly be interested in it and it would help others

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Andrew and James, thank you for your kind words and encouragement. I appreciate it. I just got in late, so I shall respond to you both in the next day or so.

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