Total cost + import for Tormach PCNC 440, and alternatives?

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Andrew, you have a 3 phase supply, so I can see what you are doing, but for the normal domestic single phase garage setup, I still feel there is a problem. Your setup is slightly more industrial if I may say so. So fair play to you.

Alan, I haven't got it yet, I am in the processing of making the deal, and was keen to make utterly sure I had the mains in my garage to do this!

I don't think the breaker tripping out issue is to do with transients, Alan, more it is to do with Earth leakage current which is intentional (the EMI filter does it purposely to quell the EMI) and then the RCD device in the distribution board under the stairs senses this as a fault. Which it is not, but nevertheless still trips the breaker!

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Well, anyway, I will report back, if I may, as and when I finish this project.

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

Just my pennyworth.

The Denford range is based on Sherline machines. Have you considered a Sherline – or are they too small?

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Peter, I fully see where you are coming from, and they look super machines. I am planning on teaching myself 4th axis CNC coming from an engineering background but no CAM experience. I have researched this endlessly and what draws me to Tormach, every time, is the fantastic effort they have put in to the marketing by way of their own Youtube site, other Youtube user enthusiasts, and many videos and documents made by them to help newcomers. It is the 'open source' ethos I really like and it will pay them back.

I looked at the Pocket NC V2-10 for a while but realised that 5th axis is tricky on the brain. I need to walk before running.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Steve Dunthorne 1 on 08/01/2021 15:03:27:

Andrew, you have a 3 phase supply, so I can see what you are doing, but for the normal domestic single phase garage setup, I still feel there is a problem. Your setup is slightly more industrial if I may say so.

When I moved in the electricity supply was 60A and had a wind yer own fuses distribution box. So it needed updating and it seemed sensible to install a 3-phase supply rather than just an updated single phase. I'm glad that I did as all my other machine tools are ex-industrial, and some would be difficult to run from a VFD while maintaining functionality.

Andrew

[Anonymous]

Posted by Steve Dunthorne 1 on 08/01/2021 15:54:24:

I am planning on teaching myself 4th axis CNC coming from an engineering background but no CAM experience.

When I bought my Tormach I also ordered the 4th axis kit. The reasoning was that I wanted the kit and it was cheaper to ship everything at once rather than have to deal with specialist shippers again at a later date.

The key to 4/5 axis is the CAM software. It starts to get pretty expensive for true 4 and 5 axis control. It was some years before I used my 4th axis. The first item I made was a 2tpi worm:

Finished worms:

Despite having a CAM package with some 4th axis capability the code for the worms was hand written. Subsequently I've used 4th axis indexing to machine bevel gear pinions:

Finished gears:

I'd highly recommend getting the 4th axis capability, even if you don't use it initially.

Andrew

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Posted by Peter Cook 6 on 08/01/2021 15:36:20:

Just my pennyworth.

The Denford range is based on Sherline machines. Have you considered a Sherline – or are they too small?

Not true Peter although Denford did do a small lathe and mill using Sherline machines within Denford enclosures operating with Denford software.

The other cnc mills and lathes in Denford's range are much larger machines than Sherline products.

Emgee

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

I would echo Andrew's comments about making sure you get as much as you can afford in the shipment to consolidate the costs.

I would include the power drawbar and the new microArc 4th axis (which is a lovely piece of kit). The TTS tooling system makes life easy with the power drawbar. If you buy the SuperFly and the ShearHog tools then make sure you get a pack of spare inserts as I find these very difficult to source in the UK.

A minor purchase which I have found useful is the USB expansion board which allows you to control external devices using GCodes within your program. This has four I/O ports.

A tooling plate is another ideal item to have. Tormach front the SMW parts but they don't offer metric thread versions. Bit of a chicken and egg situation as you need a CNC to make a plate but the plate needs to be bigger than the cutting envelope of the machine you want it for … I chatted up a local machine shop to cut one for my 440.

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Andrew, that is some really nice work there, thanks for showing. I'm intrigued you can write G code from your head to cut in simultaneous 4th axis. I think we all need lessons from you!

I am definitely going for the microArc 4th axis as, in the scheme of things, it is not a huge additional expense. And just for simple A axis indexing, will be invaluable, let alone what else it will do once I get to learn to use it simultaneously.

Where I am really struggling with a decision, budget restricted, is whether to specify an ATC. On the MX machines now, the power drawbar is standard anyway, so it sort of makes sense to try to go for the ATC, rather than come back to retrofit later. But, in a hobbyist shop environment doing one-offs, it is probably irrelevant as I will be babysitting the machine every inch of the journey. But I kinda still like the idea of the ATC – it is exciting that you can have this in your garage. I could only dream of such industrial luxury literally a few years ago. Trouble is, with the VAT, the ATC is an extra £5k. Hmmmm.

Alan, can you share the sort of thing you are getting your 4 I/O ports to actually do? I am intrigued but cannot think of what I need to happen!

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

I didn't go for the ATC as like you say in a small shop you tend to keep an eye on things and there is not likely to be a dark milling session. With power drawbar and TTS system tool change is a few seconds but clearly important to make sure the Tool Table is up to date … you will need a digital caliper and granite block for this but I find the Tormach one I bought to be very small for the footprint of the caliper. Probably a local kitchen granite supplier would provide an offcut providing they can cut a hole for the inverted tool for you.

I was probably a bit premature on the expansion board recommendation. I use it for clock wheel cutting. I have a Sherline CNC rotary table and I increment the table from the expansion board. Note that this was before the microArc came on scene as prior to that there was not 4th axis for the 440. I could now do the same with the microArc but I have a short piece of code that runs reliably so no great incentive to migrate this activity to the microArc. Other uses are for alarm signals as a result of IF statements, beacon lights etc.

Other thoughts – I have just fitted a second nozzle on my Fogbuster coolant kit. The system is very good for giving an air jet and a coolant mist but a single nozzle was not clearing pockets very well so I added the second nozzle. I think you have to order the upgrade kit for this and not get a dual one as standard. Have a look at the Fogbuster site direct. Note that the Fogbuster runs on 10 to 15 psi and you have be able to support this with a compressor that can cope. I have a Bambi PT50 which just manages on a long job but does get a bit warm. The plus side is that it is not too noisy,

I didn't buy any probing from Tormach. I had a Haimer already and I subsequently bought the Hallmark ITTP probe which works very well.

Alan

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Thanks Alan, all useful thoughts. For the tool setting, I was thinking not to go down the route of granite table. They do two options, an electronic setter which sits on the table and plugs into their kit (£1100 inc VAT) or a spring loaded vernier thing you place on the table, jog the tool to it and enter the data yourself which is more like £100.

The only advantage I can see with the electronic one is you can auto test tools after each use and between tool changes to make sure there have been no breakages at each stage. Again, if I don't go down the auto tool changer route, which I probably won't, then really no need for this either.

There is a lot to think about when placing an order like this, and I thank you for your input and thought provoking ideas.

Andrew, just a thought on your 4th axis: I see you have a decent 'tailstock' for it. How on Earth do you go about setting up the tailstock to centre on the A axis? Can anyone recommend a good book to buy? I looked on Amazon and there are loads of books, when you peek inside, they start telling you that CNC stands for computer numerical control and that the z axis is the up and down one blah blah blah. I need a good book aimed at the educated newbie. Any suggestions?

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Posted by Steve Dunthorne 1 on 09/01/2021 14:12:58:

Check your Message box Steve, top menu bar envelope flashing.

Emgee

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

All understood Steve

So long as you have a means of measuring tool height from the collet edge to tool tip you can manually enter this value into the Tool Table on PathPilot. Assuming no breakages, no significant wear and no movement in the collet grip you don't need to change this value. The tool number and the tool diameter are common to both Fusion 360 but the tool number is the only field that is the link between the two tables

You make the tool number in PathPilot match the tool number in Fusion 360 and the exported GCode automatically asks for the right tool and uses the tool height you have entered in the PathPilot tool table. The tool table in Fusion is used by the CAM processor to watch for tool length, collet size etc that could lead to clashes when calculating the CAM whereas the PathPilot value is used to set the tool height relative to Z0.

Not sure that was very well explained ….What I am saying is for basic operations you will probably believe the tool table in PathPilot unless you are nervous about the job or something happened during the last job that made you twitchy. There are automatic routines in PathPilot that let you set where the tool measuring device is located on the table and auto updates the tool table after a measurement (assuming you have selected the right tool number ..).

I came to CNC some five or six years ago and fumbled my way watching John Saunders on NYC CNC. The early videos are very much as he was learning.

CNC Milling in the Workshop by Marcus Bowman is worth the investment.

Alan

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Thanks Alan, I really appreciate your help.

Ordered the book just now! Great.

[Bob RodgersonParticipant @bobrodgerson97362]

Hi Steve, I can say from experience that the ATC is not essential but the Auto Drawbar is. I got fed up with my ATC ripping up the nylon bolts that hold the holders in place. They are prone to developing backlash that becomes too great and eventually this exceeds the tolerance that allows the spindle to descend over the tool holder shank. There is a cure for this and I have done it but I now rarely use the ATC. When placing your order go for as much stuff as you can afford, the quality is really good and I am sure you won't regret buying a Tormach machine.

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Bob, thank you for this, makes a lot of sense.

The Tormach 770MX is definitely standard BT30 and standard Power drawbar, so that's a given. I really cannot justify £5k for the ATC when I can spend that on more tooling instead.

What are your thoughts on tool height setting options?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You will need the paid for F360 if you want to use multiple tools and rapids for that matter.

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Hi Jason, yes I think that is the case anyway, if you want to use 4th axis, so I just have to suck that up. I haven't got Sky Sports, so I think of it as comparable to that!

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

If I were you Steve I would get your feet under the table with the hobbyist free licence and then wait for Autodesk to offer one of their discounted licence deals that crop up every now and again. I jumped when they offered 50% off on a 3 year deal.

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Hi Alan, I use Fusion 360 free version for my 3D printing, but I haven't been offered one of those deals yet! I shall wait and see. Thanks for the tip.

[Anonymous]

I'll try and add to some of the points previously made. Plus one for the TTS system. I bought a second special collet and use the system for about 80% of the milling and drilling on my Bridgeport.

At the time I bought my Tormach (2009) there wasn't an ATC. I have looked at it since. But it's very expensive and my gut feel was that it isn't robust or reliable. When I was looking at buying the Tormach I also considered Haas. The ATC option was almost as much as the base machine. It's not sufficiently painful to change tools manually to make me look at buying the ATC.

I didn't initially buy a power drawbar but have done so since. Although I'm embarrassed to say that I haven't fitted it yet.

I designed a tooling plate and bought a large (expensive) piece of tooling plate. But I never got around to making the plate and thus far I don't miss it. I'm not sure I'll ever make it.

I didn't buy any books specifically on CNC mills – I just worked it out as I went. The only book I bought was "CNC Programming Handbook" by Peter Smid. It is a professional level book aimed at CNC lathes and mills. I use it as my go to guide for G-code.

My CAM program will only do 4th axis round and round or up and down the axis. For the worm ideally one needs a helical toolpath. Turns out a helical toolpath is quite simple, one line of code:

G01 X-11.450 A2160.000 F0.400

This goes from the current position to the specified value of X and a specified number of degrees in A. So the code is simply a series of the above commands with appropriate starting values of X and Z. I used three tools, 6mm and 4mm endmills for roughing and a tapered end mill to finish the flanks. The feedrate looks odd. That is because I used inverse time feedrates (G93). I had also sorts of trouble getting the original Tormach version of Mach3 to use conventional feedrates for helical paths. In short they never worked. A look at this post will illustrate the whole sorry saga:

Worms

The tailstock is pretty much set in Y by tenons on the underside of the body. To set in Z I used the arbor on which the part sat and tweaked the adjustment until the tip sat nicely in the corresponding countersink. A quick check along the arbor with a DTI will confirm that the arbor is parallel to the table.

Andrew

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

I recently bought a second-hand CNC mill that is essentially the Wabeco 1410, but with the electronics and axis drives fitted by a US company, MDA Precision. No power draw bar – just the standard Wabeco self-ejecting version – but BT30 spindle. Tool-changing for me at the moment is by swapping tools in an ER32 collet. However, it does have a table-mounted tool-height setter and I find this is to be extremely effective. Mach3 M6 tool-change commands automatically check and set tool height, avoiding any manual measuring or setting. It ain't no tool-changer, but for a hobby user it's a lot cheaper! I haven't explicitly measured repeatability of settings but casual observation suggests it's better than 20u/1thou. If I could speed up the actual tool-change process, it would be even better. The worst bit for me is actually changing the collet in the ER32 closing nut – this one is really tight for the smaller collets.

The other point is that there is an F360 add-on available that fudges the output from F360 to stitch back together the separate one-per-tool outputs from the post-processor, and also can detect when rapids should be used and puts these back in. I have been using it for a little while and although it has a few rough edges, it seems to work. For things like adaptive clearing where there is a lot of tool repositioning, having proper rapid feed saves a lot of machine time. You can find references to it by searching for "Tim Paterson fusion 360" – but use at your own risk! And of course Autodesk might do something to block it at any time. I'm starting to wish I had bought the full licence when Autodesk offered it with the discount a little while back, but that was before I bought the new machine…

[Anonymous]

When I bought my Tormach I didn't get any of the tool setting equipment. I started by touching off each tool as I used it and on subsequent parts altering the Z value at each tool change (I don't think you can do that in PathPilot at a toolchange). Until I forgot to do so, and the machine drove an M3 tap 20mm deep before starting the spindle. At that point I started measuring each tool as before but then entered the values into the Mach3 tool table and adjusted the post-processing file to use the tool table. I use mostly carbide cutters and got fed up of chipping them when touching off. I also found that I was avoiding the use of multiple tools in one program as it was a pain sorting out the tool table.

So I splashed out and bought the electronic tool height setter. I also made a master tool (number 0) which is longer than most tools I am likely to use. A master tool is bit old school as the modern method is to use the spindle nose. But I feel that is a bit inconvenient on the Tormach, especially with small work pieces. I also bought a Haimer Zero Master and Centro for setting X/Y work offsets. Of course they also get used on the Bridgeport and I have used the Centro on the horizontal mill.

The sequence I use now is one, zero the master tool in Z on the table. Plug in the tool setter and measure each tool in turn. With Mach3 you had to remember to save the tool table before powering off. But PathPilot saves automatically. After measuring tool heights, back to the master tool for the work Z offset and then one or other of the Haimers for X/Y work offsets.

Andrew

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

Morning Andrew

I echo you sequence. I made my tool zero from a piece of silver steel in a standard TTS collet. It has a domed end and measures the same 'height' as the Haimer under compression at 'zero'.

I have edited the Fusion to Tormach export config to create a G37/G37.1 after every tool change with a soft switch in the export options if I don't need it. While this is a nice automated routine in program, you have to remember to zero the nose on switch on. I have added a visual text prompt to this effect in my spindle warm up routines but still forget if I get distracted …

Because the 440 has limited Z I also have added a config option for a G53 move to get the tool up and out of the way at every tool change regardless of any G37 activity.

Alan

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Andrew I am going to pick your brains one more time here. This thread title ends in " ….and alternatives" so I feel this is still appropriate. I am pretty set on getting a Tormach 770MX. I like PathPilot from what I can glean. I like the online presence of 'assistance and how to's'. I like the American input, I actually rate the Americans very highly in engineering.

But there is one thing nagging me. The pretty Chinese lady Naomi Wu has recently been pushing the SYIL X5 combo and you have to say this is a fair comparison machine. And cheaper. Choice of controller is different. I don't know anything about Siemens or Fanuc but they look very expensive but there are others too. However, the one glaring difference with SYIL is they have now gone for linear rails on 3 axes, much as a Haas has. The Tormach still has dovetails and gib adjustments. That's a negative, right?

Please can I have your honest opinion on the merits of both and whether this is a factor I should bear in mind.

Honestly, this is a machine purchase I am making for the long term and, as such, it is quite important to me to get it right.

[Author]

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