TOOLING SURVEY

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Most of the time, I use a tangential type tool, in the Lathe. So that is obviously my main preference.

Kenelm Lee Guiness (The inventor of and proprietor of KLG sparking plugs, back in the '20s) apparently used to drive through cross roads at 60 mph. He claimed that you were in the danger area for a shorter time!

All sorts of different conclusions can be drawn from the same set of figures. Just depends which axe you are seeking grind.

"Tea, (or whatever other beverage you prefer) must be poisonous; because everyone who drinks it eventually dies".

On the other hand, without a regular, adequate, fluid intake you will die.

Which thought process is illogical?

A sense of proportion, and Common Sense, are not that common.

Winston Churchill was quoted as saying that "There are liars, damned liars, and statisticians"

Howard

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 09/02/2018 10:24:30

 

During the 1950s it was discovered that there was a strong correlation between rising violent crime and the number of television sets sold. Obviously TV causes violent crime. Or not – the same correlation existed between crime rates and the sale of Washing Machines. Obviously violent crime is caused by clean underwear. Yet another correlation between Lead in the environment from Petrol and violent crime. Hard to work out which conclusion is genuine, in this example probably they are all false.

Dave

I don't know about whether it causes violent crime, but lead is definitely bad for you. The body has no mechanism to dispose of it. So i'm glad theres less of it in the air, regardless.

I don't know any blokes who fought over lead! They might've had a few pints though!

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 09/02/2018 15:40:45

[OldironParticipant @oldiron]

Just a quick Q' Why does the Tangential HSS show up as number of votes and the rest as a % ?

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Oldiron, I don't think it does, currently shows as 12% with total votes 171 underneath

John

[OldironParticipant @oldiron]

Dohh OK thanks John. Didn't spot the location correctly. (not the first time and probably not the last)

regards

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 09/02/2018 10:24:30:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 09/02/2018 09:23:57:

Interesting how few folks use pre-ground HSS tools

…

Neil

I know this is just a test of forum capability but Neil's comment shows how careful you have to be designing questionnaires and interpreting results. The question wasn't 'who uses', it was 'what do you prefer?' That's a big difference.

'Prefer' is also dodgy : I 'prefer' HSS for some jobs and 'prefer' Carbide for others. Once in a Blue Moon I 'prefer' to use pre-ground HSS. Should the question have been "Which form of lathe tooling do you use most often"? (Depends on the purpose of the questionnaire. I bet my suggestion's wrong too!)

My wife, as a market researcher, sometimes (it was all the rage ten years ago) has to ask people 'If 'product x' came to life, how would you feel about them?' Choose from the likes of 'it would be my best friend' and other stomach-churning options.

Although maybe we should ask it about people's lathes…

Neil

[Graham TitmanParticipant @grahamtitman81812]

Tim Stevens wonders how long tangential tooling has been around.

In the late 1960s we used a roller chipstream box on Herbert pre-op capstans.The tipped tool was held at the same angle as the aussie one.15 thou from the corner and a 15thou land on the cutting edge a vee on a diagonal hand ground and the feed rate was unbelievable you needed pliers to break the swarf and the cut could take 1/2" off the diameter.

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

I feel tangential tooling or the general idea of it may be as old as the first lathes ever used .

[RobinParticipant @robin]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 09/02/2018 12:37:36:

with the tangential type the bar is held almost vertically. This simplifies grinding tools as the near-vertical face provides one of the important clearance angles.

I recently saw a parting off tool like that and thought what a good idea, but then I wondered how it would stand up to a hammering from anything out of round. Didn't know it was tangential. I actually made one about 10 years ago to get a set pointy angle from a normal Eclipse HSS blank. Never finished that machine, but if you gathered together all the machines I haven't finished you would understand my workshop

Appreciate the explanation

Robin

[VicParticipant @vic]

I really think it’s time the Tangential tool was highlighted again in MEW. Cheap to run, easy to sharpen and quick to set to centre height, what’s not to like.

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

With regard to Tangential tooling, I came across a picture some time ago of a Carboloy tangential tool that used round carbide bits.

My copy of this is my most used general purpose tool. It has all the same benefits as the usual square HSS designs , but requires less sharpening. The carbide I use is the shank of a broken 3mm end mill.

So, which section do I cast my vote?

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

A little side note, that I prefer indexable carbide tips, now that I know where I can get them from at good prices. They sell them off for a song.

I've tested these economic ones against branded ones and I can't really tell a lot of difference between them just looking at the outside and taking a test cut. I would suspect that the real question of superiority would come about when you tried taking deeper cuts into hard steels. (See how it performs under plenty of heat and stress)

So it's got my vote, but it doesn't tell the whole story that I still need to grind HSS tools for the jobs that my indexables just cannot do. 

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 10/02/2018 12:15:52

[RobinParticipant @robin]

Interesting question. Of course the normal HSS tool tip sinks lower and lower with every sharpening until you have to grind it all the way back and start over. The tangential must have similar problems should you deviate from it's set shape.

When rummaging through the box of stubs and nubs looking for a volunteer to become that new tooth form you can often avoid a lot of grinding by simply turning it sideways on or upside down.

The tangential is probably much the same, but it is damaging my brain trying to visualise it

[RobinParticipant @robin]

Talking of carbide inserts, I was turning some ball screws down to fit pulleys and bearings and stuff. They seemed to have a hard case, possibly work hardened after a tough thread rolling.

The insert invariably broke and then cut. The shattered tip worked better than the original sharpness.

Made me wonder if I knew what I was doing. Life is mostly surprises for me, I muddle through somehow

[John ReeseParticipant @johnreese12848]

I am surprised you didn't allow multiple entries. I use carbide inserts for some things, self ground HSS , brazed carbide either as received or specially ground, or tangential HSS. There id a different favorite for each task.

[Wout MoermanParticipant @woutmoerman25063]

I voted for grind my own HSS. But to be honest I bought some home ground HSS from a pro user and they are great. But I do resharpen them often so in that respect I grind my own. I also have some really self grinder HSS but it can be quite tedious.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

It's well over a year since we ran this survey, but i see it has now received well over 200 votes, and it's interesting to see that Carbide inserts now have a small lead over home-ground HSS.

I'm sure this would have looked rather different 20 or even 10 years ago!

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by John Reese on 10/02/2018 13:52:14:

I am surprised you didn't allow multiple entries. I use carbide inserts for some things, self ground HSS , brazed carbide either as received or specially ground, or tangential HSS. There id a different favorite for each task.

Very late response(!) because then one person of fickle opinions could make several votes, outweighing the views of a person with a clear preference.

If in doubt, just vote for your favourite general purpose tool that you usually leave in the toolpost

Neil

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Just to update the vote; I use tangential as my preferred tool ( 95% 0f the time ) followed up by inserts as the # 2 choice, followed by a couple of specifically ground HSS.

George.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

I don't know if I missed the survey, but I'd now find it impossible to answer because which I use depends on tool purpose. *Mostly* I grind my own HSS, but I note that nobody's selected HSS inserts when I'm sure those HSS parting blade inserts (which I wouldn't want to be without) must be reasonably popular or they'd no longer be available.

So most people would have to accept that other types are also essential to their activity.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

The survey asks which you "prefer", which I would take to mean whichever one you use the most. I don't think anyone uses only one type exclusively.

Interesting. I've never thought of a parting blade as an insert. It is the whole tool, just mounts in a purpose built holder. HSS inserts to me means the pre-ground HSS inserts that were a bit commonish before carbide took over. Used to be more common on large milling side/face cutters than on lathe tools in places I worked at in the last century.

Interesting to see the use of carbide inserts rising in the poll. I've started using them more myself in the past two years since good quality inserts cheap cheap from China came online. They seem to work a lot better on the ML7 than the old Drummond M.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Hopper on 14/05/2019 07:36:38:

… They seem to work a lot better on the ML7 than the old Drummond M.

.

That's rather intriguing, Hopper … given that the Drummond M is more heavily built in some areas.

Any thoughts as to why ?

MichaelG.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Hopper on 14/05/2019 07:36:38:

…

Interesting. I've never thought of a parting blade as an insert. It is the whole tool, just mounts in a purpose built holder. HSS inserts to me means the pre-ground HSS inserts that were a bit commonish before carbide took over. Used to be more common on large milling side/face cutters than on lathe tools in places I worked at in the last century.

…

Well, it's something where you could replace the cutting element without removing the tool from the post or having to reset it afterwards – but I reckon it'd be sophistry to debate that at any length. I certainly wouldn't *prefer* to grind all parting tools from solid or butt-welded HSS, but I've got a selection of a dozen or so HSS tools that I've ground to cut forms and get in to various places at angles that suit me.

I don't think I've ever seen HSS milling inserts, even though I also did a few years' milling last century – nor turning 'tip' -style ones either; that's why I thought parting blades were the obvious example.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 14/05/2019 08:08:33:

Posted by Hopper on 14/05/2019 07:36:38:

… They seem to work a lot better on the ML7 than the old Drummond M.

.

That's rather intriguing, Hopper … given that the Drummond M is more heavily built in some areas.

Any thoughts as to why ?

MichaelG.

Bigger spindle diameter and headstock bearings are the big difference I think. I never could get the Drummond to produce a good finish with carbide. Plus the old flat belts on the Drummond can slip under heavy load with the not-so-sharp-edged carbide tools that take more power to cut. Once the belt slips and the spindle slows down, it just tears the tip off the insert. So you can't really take advantage of the carbide's ability to shift metal at a high rate of knots. Poly-V belt run on the flat pulleys helps but long term plans are to machine the proper Poly-V grooves in the Drummond pulleys using the ML7 to do the job. One day…

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