Tom Senior light X Axis power feed

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

I have made a youtube video for anyone who may have an interest in milling, who like me is an amateur. A total cockup & then a result. I must thank Jason B & others who have been kind enough to put up with me while getting to terms with how to etc.

I spent hours milling a surface down with a cutter taking 15 thou cuts & wearing the edges off an expensive to buy cutter 5/8" HSS. Completely the wrong way to go about the job. But after some guidance from you forum members, i got my head around the way to do it. A bit of Asian versus old British came into it but just poking fun really.

We have to entertain somehow. Don't watch much TV these days. Love this forum. I am a member of 4 other forums but you always get the same questions like. I have not used my F-Type for 4 months & the battery has gone flat, what do i do.

This forum is different. There is always someone who asks a question & you think mmmm. Then someone comes along with an answer. Brilliant. It's like a knowledge base. Neil. Jason & any other moderators keep up the great work to keep this forum one of the best.

Stay safe everyone. Milling bloopers & result

Steve.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Steve,

You were actually climb milling there mate. Climb milling basically means the cutter is dragging the work into itself. That's why with gib loose it jumped at the end and why you had all those scallops in the surface. Nothing wrong with climb milling on a well set up machine and it can actually give you a better finish and with some jobs it's hard to avoid but best to not take heavy cuts. With a slab mill on a horizontal mill it can spit the job out of the vice!  Just visualise the rotation of the cutter, if it's dragging the work towards it its climb milling, if it's pushing it away its "conventional".

Have a go the other way and see how that goes, you will be able to up your feed rate.

Paul.

Edited By Paul Kemp on 11/04/2020 23:23:38

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Ah I see. I know in the video it looked like the spindle was going anti clockwise but that was frame speed. The spindle was clockwise as seen from above. So was I wrong. Please advise.

Steve.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Steve,

Spindle needs to rotate clock wise or the cutter will rub as you won't be presenting the cutting edge to the material. Imagine looking down on the cutter going clockwise and presented to the job as you had it feeding right to left the cutting edges are dragging the material toward the cutter. If you had been feeding left to right it would be pushing the work away from the cutter. Do a doodle on a piece of paper. Try it again tomorrow going t'other way you will see and feel the difference.

Paul.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Will that be better. ??? I am a twit. Thanks in advance. I was under the impression that going clockwise from right to left the cutter is trying to dig down into the work & the other way around it is trying to climb out effectively trying to lift the work off the table. Got it the wrong way round. I guess if I was a youngster at school they would have a name for my condition. 

Steve.

Edited By Steviegtr on 11/04/2020 23:36:46

[Alan Waddington 2Participant @alanwaddington2]

Dunno why, but that toothbrush cracks me up

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Easy mistaka to maka! Try the other way you will see. You can feel it on the hand wheel when climbing the cutter drags the work along and it's easy to turn. Going the other way you will feel more resistance as you push the work past the cutter. A lot less risky and you will break fewer cutters

Paul.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 11/04/2020 23:56:55:

Easy mistaka to maka! Try the other way you will see. You can feel it on the hand wheel when climbing the cutter drags the work along and it's easy to turn. Going the other way you will feel more resistance as you push the work past the cutter. A lot less risky and you will break fewer cutters

Paul.

Thanks Paul. Just watched a few vids on youtube explaining the difference. Climb, = cleaner cut but drags.

Steve.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Alan Waddington 2 on 11/04/2020 23:53:56:

Dunno why, but that toothbrush cracks me up

You can laugh it's the only one I have. Tastes awful.

Steve.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Thanks for posting the video, Steve. Noble of you to give us such an unguarded look at your early attempts at milling, and very useful ultimately to people like me who are also still in the early stages of learning how to use a mill.

Am looking forward to reading further comments from experienced members on what you've shown us.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

As others have said that was climb milling, easy way is to think of the cutters teeth like an ice axe being used by a climber to pull themselves up a mountain. What you really want is the action of someone digging a hole where the spade pushes the muck forwards. A very light climb cut as a finish is OK on a well set up machine but not ideal with what you were taking off.

Cutters, Once we just had slot drills and end mills. Slot = 2 flute and ctr cutting. End generally 4 flute in our sizes and not ctr cutting. Now we can get any number of flutes with ctr cutting so the old terms are out the window which is why I usually say the flute number rather than slot/end.

That chipped one can still be used for things like squaring the ends of flat bar just have the cutters end below the work and use the good edge higher up.

As well as cutting conventionally try with a 3mm depth of cut (DOC is generally the sideways movement) but still at your same 5mm height, you can probably feed faster which will cancel out having to make a few more passes. If you have set up your power feed with rapid return then I would just work in from one edge.

Talking of power feed, I don't know how you have wired it up but when you got that jam you reached for the machines safety stop, ideally have the feed cut out on the same button otherwise had you been using power feed the work would still been getting pushed into the stationary cutter and that will either snap the cutter and/or do nasty things to your nuts.

Small 1/2" or 1" decorators brush is better for removing swarf and cleaning up the vice between setups.

J

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Steviegtr on 11/04/2020 23:32:09:

Will that be better. ??? I am a twit.

…

Not at all, you are inexperienced – a different problem entirely!

There are two aspects to climb milling.

1. Climb milling is generally BAD on light machines with a small motor and noticeable backlash. Rigidity is absolutely vital when climb milling. Rigidity comes partly from the physical heft of the machine, partly from how firmly the work is held, and partly from the work and cutter's ability to resist vibration. As a Bridgeport is a 'light machine' in this context, best to avoid climb milling in a small workshop! Backlash must be minimised, ideally zero, and few hobby or second-hand machines are free of it. For us Conventional Milling is better because rigidity is less critical and backlash doesn't matter at all.
2. Climb milling is really GOOD on a heavy well-adjusted machine with a powerful motor. Provided there is no movement, climb cutting removes more metal faster and consumes fewer watts. It also produces a better finish. The professionals spend seriously big money on machines capable of climb milling.

So casual research on the web will tell you Climb milling is better than Conventional milling and vice versa.

So much for the theory! In practice, most milling machines will climb mill to some degree. But success depends hugely on factors that change job by job, and this can seriously mislead beginners.

My WM18 is more powerful than your Tom Senior, but I expect the Tom Senior is more rigid. Hard to compare cutting performance directly, but as both machines are limited, I expect the results of Climb vs Conventional testing would be similar.

On my WM18 99% of milling is done conventionally, but I often Climb mill finishing cuts. When climb milling, it's important to not push my luck, which boils down to light cuts only. The material makes a difference too; what works on Aluminium or Brass might not on Steel. It's a judgment/experience thing that has to be learned.

With respect it is too early for : 'I have made a youtube video for anyone who may have an interest in milling, who like me is an amateur. A total cockup & then a result.' Please don't add accidentally to the large number of dud youtube tutorials. Too often they demonstrate lucky results rather than reliable methods.

Can I recommend again that you build something like a model stationary engine from a plan. Using a lathe and mill to make a range of different parts out of different materials that fit together into a complex working engine is extremely educational. Especially the mistakes! An important aspect is the need to use other tools in concert – work-holding, brazing, saws, files, drills, reamers, laps & measuring gear etc)

Owning a Stradivarius isn't enough; violinists have to learn to read music and play the instrument. Then lots of practice to hone their skills. No short-cuts…

Dave

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

JasonB said.

As well as cutting conventionally try with a 3mm depth of cut (DOC is generally the sideways movement) but still at your same 5mm height, you can probably feed faster which will cancel out having to make a few more passes. If you have set up your power feed with rapid return then I would just work in from one edge.

Thanks for that. I did not know how deep, side cut to do. I guessed it was anything less than half the dia of cutter. Will do that ,probably not today as everyone is out in there gardens at mo.

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Steve, I could be wrong but I think from something I saw a while back that the Tom Senior Light can be converted from MT2 to R8. If thats true have you looked into it or considered it, I dont know how difficult it would be to do, maybe you know.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Climb milling will produce a better finish, which is why it is used in industry. But their machine are much more heavily built, and have backlash preventers, which our machines lack.

You can get away with light cuts if the gibs are well set, and the table clamps lightly applied, for light cuts.

If the cutter digs in, something is going to suffer, probably both the cutter and the job!

Howard

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 12/04/2020 19:39:49:

Climb milling will produce a better finish, which is why it is used in industry. But their machine are much more heavily built, and have backlash preventers, which our machines lack.

You can get away with light cuts if the gibs are well set, and the table clamps lightly applied, for light cuts.

If the cutter digs in, something is going to suffer, probably both the cutter and the job!

Howard

Yes it did Howard. Lesson learned. I did watch a few articles on the subject last night which basically is just as you say.

Steve.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Ron Laden on 12/04/2020 13:13:22:

Steve, I could be wrong but I think from something I saw a while back that the Tom Senior Light can be converted from MT2 to R8. If thats true have you looked into it or considered it, I dont know how difficult it would be to do, maybe you know.

Yes I think it was Not done it yet who did it. I have been using it today & I have not seen any flexing of the MT2. I have been cutting as advised by JasonB & I am having very good results. It was a lot of things wrong. Mainly the operator. Cutting wrong direction , wrong technique & to boot the X axis gib strip not set right by me last week after removal. In fairness though on Saturday I received some 4 flute slot cutters & have had better results with those.

Steve.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Not me. Try old mart.  Your memory is not very good – it is in this thread.  

Edited By not done it yet on 12/04/2020 20:13:03

You read it before I checked it out.

Edited By not done it yet on 12/04/2020 20:14:07

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by not done it yet on 12/04/2020 20:10:08:

Not me. Try old Mart.

Ah I knew it was one of you regulars who did it. I tried to find the post but gave up. Sorry.

Steve.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

SOD posted

With respect it is too early for : 'I have made a youtube video for anyone who may have an interest in milling, who like me is an amateur. A total cockup & then a result.' Please don't add accidentally to the large number of dud youtube tutorials. Too often they demonstrate lucky results rather than reliable methods.

Can I recommend again that you build something like a model stationary engine from a plan. Using a lathe and mill to make a range of different parts out of different materials that fit together into a complex working engine is extremely educational. Especially the mistakes! An important aspect is the need to use other tools in concert – work-holding, brazing, saws, files, drills, reamers, laps & measuring gear etc)

Sod i have already got 4 stationary engines.

Can't drive em for at least 12 weeks as am told to stay indoors. Why the hell would I want another one.

To upset you even more as i obviously do for some strange reason. I have posted another DUD, youtube video.

Just to add I was brazing cast iron to mild steel at school for my motorcycle when I was 14. I have probably sawn more steel, wood , plastic etc than you have. One of the 1st projects in metalwork was to learn how to draw file. How to clean a file. Me I took the broken ones home & ground them down to make wood chisels. I still have some in the workshop. Not used a reamer since doing the rear sub frames on mini's (Radius arm bushes). Not done many laps though. Hated running. Measuring ,mnn not sure how to do that other than spending half my life scaling drawings & transferring to CAD. Regards. Ranting over. 

Steve.

Edited By Steviegtr on 14/04/2020 04:23:53

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 12/04/2020 02:52:54:

Thanks for posting the video, Steve. Noble of you to give us such an unguarded look at your early attempts at milling, and very useful ultimately to people like me who are also still in the early stages of learning how to use a mill.

Am looking forward to reading further comments from experienced members on what you've shown us.

Thanks for the comment Bill. JasonB has been very helpful. Sod has just been his usual self. But I will bat on regardless. I will be doing more vids. I usually do lots of motorcycling video's of our groups ride outs. Then spend ages editing them , putting funny comments in & still photo's of the places we have visited.

But it looks like that is on the back burner for much of this year. So now I have the gopro set up in the workshop I will entertain myself doing DUD video's. I wonder how many people only show you the bits they want you to see. Keeping the camera away from the corner of the room , where all the scrap failures are piled up. Er where did I put that dust sheet.

Steve.

Edited By Steviegtr on 14/04/2020 04:27:05

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You are getting there Steve. From watching you adjust the Y axis I would say you may have the gibs a bit too tight as it looks like they take some effort to turn, maybe slacken off very slightly and you can always use the lock to add a bit of drag if needed by just nipping it up but not fully tightening.

Tool is not a 4-flute slot, just a 4-flute endmill as there is no ctr cutting tooth on the end.

As you say for the dovetail mill out just deeper with a straight cutter then the edges with the DT cutter. Chamfers are easily done by tilting the work in the vice and just using the edge of a standard cutter.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

So, not changed that motor yet.🙂 Just consider whether a motor, of twice the power, would have stalled, when you overloaded it, or whether twice the power would have broken something more than just one tooth off the end mill. No point in having the belt slip with a more powerful motor, either – might just as well keep the current motor and be able to use all its power (than fit a bigger motor and only use half of it).

I noted the VFD did not trip out on overload. Is it set correctly, I wonder?

First impressions certainly count – I looked back at your earliest thread, a while ago, and thought how could someone (with such apparent wide experience) not be able to sort out a simple conundrum as that (change gears and what the tumbler gears do – what with so many youtube videos on the subject). But never mind, you are certainly demonstrating your inexperience on the vids. Good for all to see how not to do it.🙂 But you are now taking note and learning, so progress. I do like your sense of humour, at times (amongst the mumblings🙂 . Keep it up and you will get there – rather faster than some, I am sure.

My final cuts are generally just a very slight turn on the depth/width (a couple hundredths of a mm, if that) and climb mill. Usually improves the finish considerably.

Slitting saws notoriously cut only on part of the circumference better than the rest. One needs to feed sufficient to utilise all the teeth (to avoid some teeth ‘rubbing) but not so much that the gullets fill with swarf. A few less teeth might have been advantageous for a job like that, although a decent band saw might have been a better choice for the job. Certainly better to be left with a piece of useable material rather than converting it into swarf, if possible.

I see progress, for sure.

Edited to add: Who cares about the size of the roughing cuts (+ or – a few hundredths), its only the finishing size that is important – and only for the dovetails on a tool holder.  Especially as you seem to be going to make the slot for the cutter wider than the bought-in example.

And to try to remove those silly emoticons the system adds in for brackets, etc

Edited By not done it yet on 14/04/2020 09:36:24

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If you insert a space between the last character and the final,closing, bracket, you don't get the ******* emoticon.

Took me a LONG time to find out that!

Howard

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Howard,

I got rid of one or two but couldn’t be ‘posterior-ed’ to go back and edit again!

[Author]

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