Tom Senior light X Axis power feed

[Alan Waddington 2Participant @alanwaddington2]

Posted by Michael Briggs on 09/04/2020 21:27:03:

I have a Senior mill but I have no desire to fit a power feed because for me the mechanical feedback from the machine is invaluable. If I did I would make sure it had a sensitive means of torque limitation.

 

Curious as to why you need to feel whats going on when milling…….do you never use the carriage feed or cross slide feed on your lathe which is exactly the same ?

 

 

Edited By Alan Waddington 2 on 09/04/2020 22:00:42

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Alan Waddington 2 on 09/04/2020 21:55:51:

Posted by Michael Briggs on 09/04/2020 21:27:03:

I have a Senior mill but I have no desire to fit a power feed because for me the mechanical feedback from the machine is invaluable. If I did I would make sure it had a sensitive means of torque limitation.

Curious as to you need to feel whats going on when milling…….do you never use the carriage feed or cross slide feed on your lathe which is exactly the same ?

Steve.

[Michael BriggsParticipant @michaelbriggs82422]

I do indeed, generally for finishing cuts.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Steve, Glad that you describe engineering as a vocation.

You will will be pleased to know that in the past I have had things go "ping" and send all sorts of bits around the shop! When I made a mess of my lathe, being unaware of the detail of what was involved, I was wary of stripping the Apron, so I sought help and advice.

If you look at my profile it will show that I have spent all my life solving problems for world leading companies, so very occasionally, I do think.

In the course of that career, I have come across folk who think that a turbocharger will solve all problems; until it causes a major one.

My concern was is for folk who unwittingly bite more than they can chew, and then become disillusioned and decide that model engineering is a rubbish hobby..

I don't want that to happen.

We all learn from our experiences,.If we don't we are destined to make the same mistake again, until we do.

The work that you have shown looks to be of good quality.

You don't need to wear the cap if it doesn't fit.

Howard,

[Michael BriggsParticipant @michaelbriggs82422]

The notion that my milling machine and lathe behave exactly the same is ridiculous.

Edited By Michael Briggs on 09/04/2020 22:54:57

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Well on that note. My S7 has a power feed & cross feed. So far I have used neither. Yesterday & tonight I have used the feed on the mill. Tonight I started by winding by hand taking 15thou cuts from a block of mild steel. Using 650rpm, with a 5/8" 2 flute HSS cutter. It seemed to be going fine so I raised to 30 thou cuts. I was not happy so went back to 15 & used the power feed.

That rotates at 40rpm. It cut great & I took 6mm from the block doing traditional & climbing back & forth. I really do not know why someone would not want a power feed.

If you were buying new & the salesman offered you the power feed on a machine for free. Would you say no. Because that is just about what it cost me. The only damage that cannot be put back is the 2, 4mm holes for the limit switch on the front casting. Everything else is retro fit. If that is the correct word.

Steve.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

By Howard Lewis.

My concern is for folk who unwittingly bite off more than they can chew, and then become disillusioned and decide that model engineering is a rubbish hobby.

The cap. Well I always take my cap off to anyone who designs or makes something mechanical. I have always been in awe of all things mechanical. Even as an infant I can still remember mum taking us to the fairground. All I wanted to do was watch the huge traction engine that was powering the speedway ride. Even now I love to watch the steam train doing the Scarborough run in Summer. To make a miniture of those machines is fantastic to see. I have always said how on earth do you have the patience. My friend Randy had a Black five steamed up in his garden many years ago. It was about 18" long. Even the dinky pressure gauges worked. Amazing. Regards.

Steve

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Steve,

Like you, I stand in awe of the folk who make such superb models. FAR beyond my skills, and patience.

I am much of a backyard mechanic, making whatever takes my fancy. Often made from whatever happens to be lying around; making it up as I go along, from sketches on the back of envelopes.

My earliest engineering related memory was, as a six year old, turning the starting handle for my father to set the valves on the family car. That started me off on a long and unexpectedly varied career, working on cars, vehicles, and eventually into problem solving and development on things from locomotives, fuel injection, and even marine engines.

Life sometimes leads us down paths that we never envisaged!

I never started off yearning for a lathe, (too little knowledge ) but once obtained, would never be without one..

A friend of mine, sadly no longer with us, won a Gold medal for his loco at Sandown Park. When he got it home, he said "It's not right" "Why not? You won the Gold medal" "The shadowing on the lettering isn't right" Perfection!

As you read the various posts on here, you realise that many posters have a huge range of skills and experience in all sorts of fields, some of which can hardly be imagined. By sharing our experiences, as with your Mitutoyo micrometer, we all learn something. At some time in the future, that bit of info may prove vital for some problem that we encounter.

Howard

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Steviegtr on 09/04/2020 23:00:33:

Yesterday & tonight I have used the feed on the mill. Tonight I started by winding by hand taking 15thou cuts from a block of mild steel. Using 650rpm, with a 5/8" 2 flute HSS cutter. It seemed to be going fine so I raised to 30 thou cuts. I was not happy so went back to 15 & used the power feed.

That rotates at 40rpm. It cut great & I took 6mm from the block doing traditional & climbing back & forth. I really do not know why someone would not want a power feed.

That is more of a lightweight than I thought, was it the motor bogging down or just a general unhappiness from the machine, if the latter then as has been said little point in upping the motors power.

However you may be able to do a bit more with better machining methods. You don't say if you were taking 15thou off the top of the part with each pass or using the side of the cutter and removing 6mm x 0.015 which will have a bearing on things.

2-flute cutters, keep then for cutting accurate groves eg full 5/8" width to a desired depth or plunge cutting a neat hole. having just two flutes you will only have one engaged in the work at any given time so can get a slight knocking effect so 4-flute would be better both for surfacing and also side cutting.

If you were coming down in 15thou passes then that will soon wear the end of the flutes and the blunt cutter will make the machine even less happy. So as you have paid for a cutter with flutes all the way up the side why not use them, take a series of cuts say 0.240" deep and then that leaves you a 0.010" full width finish pass.

4-flute cutter should be able to remove twice as much metal while still keeping the same chip load as the two flute cutter thus allowing it to be fed at twice the rate and therefor halving the machining time though if the machine is that light maybe only a 50% increase could be gained but better than now.

As you like your Youtube videos here are a couple of my X3 using a similar size 16mm cutter on steel and feeding at a similar rate, main difference is I'm removing twice the volume of metal they your figures assuming you were using the full 5/8" width of the cutter, now which was the better machine

2mm deep x 6mm wide @ 500rpm cheap 4-flute HSS cutter.

0.6mm wide x 19mm deep @ 600rpm

[Alan Waddington 2Participant @alanwaddington2]

Posted by Michael Briggs on 09/04/2020 22:49:54:

The notion that my milling machine and lathe behave exactly the same is ridiculous.

Edited By Michael Briggs on 09/04/2020 22:54:57

Engage power feed, let go of handles…….please explain difference ?

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Alan Waddington 2 on 10/04/2020 11:10:01:

Posted by Michael Briggs on 09/04/2020 22:49:54:

The notion that my milling machine and lathe behave exactly the same is ridiculous.

Edited By Michael Briggs on 09/04/2020 22:54:57

Engage power feed, let go of handles…….please explain difference ?

Of course they will be different, but the same principles apply. Power feed will be more consistent than manual feed, allowing optimum speed without exceeding (overloading) or reducing (slower progress) the feed.

I don’t always use power feed while taking off the uneven edges, but once cutting consistently, the power feed is used, for straight cuts, if possible.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

In the lathe, the work rotates against a cutter. In a mill the cutter rotates against the cutter, so in both cases the motion is relative between work and cutter.

But milling cutters ,having a number of cutting edges, give an interrupted cut, It is more akin to turning an irregular object, such as square, hexagon, or octagonal bar in a lathe. But no reason, in either case, that power feed cannot be engaged, perhaps with a lower feed rate, but to produce a more even feed than is usually possible by hand,

If the method works for you, and gives the desired end result; use it,

(I am now getting brave enough to part off under power, which is a big step forward )

Howard

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I am now getting brave enough to part off under power, which is a big step forward

Is that with a rear tool post, Howard?

I nearly always part off under power with mine. I don’t have a carbide parting tool.

Thought – some milling is done with single-point tools, so that is even more like turning with the lathe (I can bore on both machines?). Nothing stopping someone (with a sufficiently powerful lathe) using a multi-point cutting tool on some occasions. After all, lots of hobbyists only had a lathe a few decades ago…

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I don't see any difference between using the feed on the lathe or mill. In both cases you select the speed, feed and DOC and flick the lever. If you have set too deep a cut or too fast a feed on the lathe you won't feel it and it could crash. Same with the mill.

I always part off under power but no rear post , HSS and Insert tools.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by JasonB on 10/04/2020 10:26:27:

Posted by Steviegtr on 09/04/2020 23:00:33:

Yesterday & tonight I have used the feed on the mill. Tonight I started by winding by hand taking 15thou cuts from a block of mild steel. Using 650rpm, with a 5/8" 2 flute HSS cutter. It seemed to be going fine so I raised to 30 thou cuts. I was not happy so went back to 15 & used the power feed.

That rotates at 40rpm. It cut great & I took 6mm from the block doing traditional & climbing back & forth. I really do not know why someone would not want a power feed.

That is more of a lightweight than I thought, was it the motor bogging down or just a general unhappiness from the machine, if the latter then as has been said little point in upping the motors power.

However you may be able to do a bit more with better machining methods. You don't say if you were taking 15thou off the top of the part with each pass or using the side of the cutter and removing 6mm x 0.015 which will have a bearing on things.

2-flute cutters, keep then for cutting accurate groves eg full 5/8" width to a desired depth or plunge cutting a neat hole. having just two flutes you will only have one engaged in the work at any given time so can get a slight knocking effect so 4-flute would be better both for surfacing and also side cutting.

If you were coming down in 15thou passes then that will soon wear the end of the flutes and the blunt cutter will make the machine even less happy. So as you have paid for a cutter with flutes all the way up the side why not use them, take a series of cuts say 0.240" deep and then that leaves you a 0.010" full width finish pass.

4-flute cutter should be able to remove twice as much metal while still keeping the same chip load as the two flute cutter thus allowing it to be fed at twice the rate and therefor halving the machining time though if the machine is that light maybe only a 50% increase could be gained but better than now.

As you like your Youtube videos here are a couple of my X3 using a similar size 16mm cutter on steel and feeding at a similar rate, main difference is I'm removing twice the volume of metal they your figures assuming you were using the full 5/8" width of the cutter, now which was the better machine

2mm deep x 6mm wide @ 500rpm cheap 4-flute HSS cutter.

 

0.6mm wide x 19mm deep @ 600rpm

 

 

The sound your machine was making cutting the 6mm edge was way noisier than my CLEAN machine. You should be ashamed. I bet it has blackheads. Haha. Tonight before seeing this I was watching some of your video's using the shell mill,on different materials. I really do need to get used to the noises. My problem is having read so much on the forum I was scared of breaking something.

In my own defence if I have one is this. An old friend gave me 5 new, HSS 2 flute end mills. That is all I have due to the fact all the other stuff I have bought is sat on a Argos shelf waiting for the store to re-open. The small one is 4mm ranging up to the 5/8" . I was probably doing it all wrong. I did ring a mate who does a lot of milling with a big machine , but all I could get out of him was without a coolant pump & gear you are wasting your time. So I plodded on. I am trying to make some extra toolholders for the QC tool post. The steel I have is 1 1/2" square. EN1A.

I needed to take off around 6mm from the face, along it's length, about 3". So I did it with conventional up one side, down the other & last one down the centre. Today I finished it but only doing 0.2mm depth. I tried 0.5mm but my machine sounded like yours so I backed of to 0.2mm. It seems like I am being too soft with the machine after watching your video's. P.S I am listening & trying to take it all in. P.S.S Mines best.

Steve.

Edited By Steviegtr on 11/04/2020 00:44:07

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Steviegtr on 11/04/2020

P.S.S Mines best.

Why not post a video replicating Jason's cuts on your machine to win over the sceptics?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

If you are now only able to take off 0.2mm (0.008" ) per pass with the cutters you have then you would be better off putting the work in the lathe's 4-jaw to size it up and then just mill the tool slot and dovetail.

Probably best to order some other cutters as you could be waiting a long time for Argos to open though you did say they were being returned to sender.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Bill, I think steve said he can't replicate that amount of cut.

Steve, did you see this one that I did to go with a post on here at some time, the first method is what I suggested for you using the side of the cutter to save wear on the corner, second method is OK if taking a decent depth. First removing over 3 times the volume of metal per pass than your 15thou cuts or almost 7 times the volume of the 8thou that you now say you had to use.

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

For the job you are doing at the moment you could get yourself one of ARC, s 25mm 2 insert end mills it's available in MT2 though I don't know what the guys think about it in MT2.

I know I keep singing it's praises but it is the tool that I now use the most on my SX2 mill. Out of interest I was cutting steel down to size this morning and tried a 0.030" cut and it sailed through it and I only have 500 Watts.

It is just a thought as it sounds like you need some more tooling to improve things.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Interesting debate about the merits of power-feed on machines! Surely this is another 'it depends' question?

My lathe has power-feed on both saddle and top slide. I use them both. Good for roughing largish objects because they save me cranking the handles. Also good for fine finish and parting off because the machine cuts far more consistently than me. Setting depth of cut and feed-rate for roughing isn't critical, but getting a fine finish needs more consideration of speeds etc. Knowledge required.

My mill is completely manual, but – in my case – it doesn't matter. The reason is I mostly make smallish objects where its quicker to spin handles than set speed, direction, and press buttons. I also drive a lot on the DRO, moving the table carefully to particular X,Y locations and stopping the cut on target. For me CNC would be far more useful than a simple traverse.

But it is just me. Someone doing lots of wide sweep-across work on bigger parts would benefit far more from power traverse on a mill. The only time I regret not having power X is when it's necessary to hand-crank the table from one side to the other, but that's rare.

A big advantage of manual milling and turning is being able to feel as well as hear when a cut isn't going well, and make instant adjustments. I think it's because amateur work often involves making the best of an imperfect combination of machine, cutter, material and operator. Small motors, lack of rigidity, cutting dry or splashing lube, not bothering to reset drive belts or gear ratios etc for a small operation, and glorious bodging. In adverse circumstances, the operator can often compensate for poor cuts by backing off or pushing harder. Skill required.

Milling machines benefit enormously from a DRO. Fitting one is a no-brainer. I'm not sure about power traverse, because I don't need it. Others would find it valuable, but it all depends – as always – on what the tool is used for!

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 11/04/2020 10:16:50

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yep, even the SX2.7 will take 1mm DOC at it's full 25mm width in steel and I dare not show what the SX3.5 can do.

As has been mentioned the MT2 could well be the limiting factor with a cross section at the point it exits the taper of only about 1/3rd that of R8 there is bound to be more flex which won't allow manly cuts, OK for a bit of ring and jewelry work.

Steve, you did not say how you were holding that 5/8" cutter but if it were in the ER collet chuck that you got then that won't be as rigid as using a MT2 finger collet direct into the spindle. So maybe try a 1/2" cutter in a MT collet.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I have a Centec 2B with a 2MT taper. I don't find that the 2MT taper restricts me. It will take off metal at a higher rate of knots than my nerves will take. Sure 2MT is old hat but don't underestimate what it will cope with.

Andrew.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by JasonB on 11/04/2020 07:33:59:

If you are now only able to take off 0.2mm (0.008" ) per pass with the cutters you have then you would be better off putting the work in the lathe's 4-jaw to size it up and then just mill the tool slot and dovetail.

Probably best to order some other cutters as you could be waiting a long time for Argos to open though you did say they were being returned to sender.

Jason thanks for your time & patience. The Argos thing, it would seem now the goods from ebay & others, I.E, click & collect are going to stay on the shelves until the store re-opens. Then I can pick items up. The 1st message I got was from ebay, saying the items were going back to sender. Not so. You are correct I will have to get some better tooling from somewhere else. I am using an ER25 Collet chuck 1 to 16mm. I do have a Clarkson but only 2 collets for it. I was not saying the machine slowed down or started chattering, it was me thinking I was overdoing it. Basically I had no idea if I had the right cutter & how deep to go with it. Thanks to you & all others that has helped.

Steve.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Steve,

Nothing succeeds like success!

Guess who had a "ping" moment this morning! Cleaning the electric spray gun when it blocked! Fortunately found the spring so was able to finish the first coat on the front of the workshop.

SWMBO is worried about all the garden going green so looks like a brush job from now on.

Hope the Ronseal does what it says on the plastic bucket.

NDIY,

Yes, a shop made 4 way indexing Back Toolpost. Carries the first parting tool that i was given, when I bought the ML7, about (Good heavens ) 40 years ago! Still not worn out, so may see me out.

Unlike parting in the front toolpost, Very rarely digs under hand feed, and never, so far, under power. Which must say something about my handfeeding.

. Howard

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Eureka , sort of. Just editing a video of what I have managed since some advice from Jason & others.

Steve.

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