Tom Senior light X Axis power feed

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Meunier on 26/03/2020 21:01:10:

Posted by Steviegtr on 26/03/2020 20:37:21:

I think that photo is a big block. It even has a hi rise & 4 barrel. I want one.

Steve.

Could be a 454 just like the one in my '72 C3 Vette out in Saudi (that one's a bit shinier than mine was )
Left it behind 'cos 9mpg would be a bummer in UK, was OK at 17p a gallon, cheaper than a bottle of water.
DaveD

Edited By Meunier on 26/03/2020 21:02:50

That was good. I had an LS6 with LS7 race fully floating pistons for racing in the Brisca F1 stock car. I was lucky to get 4mpg. That was with a 750 double pumper though & with mechanical secondaries, which would not be suitable for any road use. That takes me back some. Spent a long time fine tuning that engine. I took one cylinder head for a guide fitting to Hindles in Leeds. The car I had was a Triumph 2.5 PI. With just the head in the boot the car was on it's heels at the rear. OO a 72 corvette, was always on my wish list to convert one to RHD. Aparantly a bitch to do as the engine is offset to the right for the steering gear. So to convert would mean an engine move to the left. Not much room in there. My mate has a 350CI in black. 72 model . Love it.

Steve.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

My mention of the balance on the top pulley , using a magnet for a tacho was. The thought of a small circular magnet flying around at possibly 3000 rpm, could become unstable & want to fly off to Mars. I have some brass plate & thought to drill a hole in a circular piece & set the magnet in it. Then bond or screw the brass ring to the alloy top part of the pulley. It would not only look correct ashthetically , but would be well balanced. Some seem to think otherwise. Someone mentioned of putting a motor in something that was not designed for it. So here come my rantings.

Back in 1968 At 18 years old. I removed the engine from my 1960. 722 JTO Morris minor traveller & fitted a 1100cc sprite engine. Not powerful enough so I fitted twin 1 1/4" SU's & a 3 branch. Still not enough. so I found a MGB 1800 B series engine at a scrap yard called Babbingtons. in Leeds. I did a deal with the guy. He took away an old Austin A35 & an Anglia & I gave him £10 for the engine & overdrive gearbox. The deal was anything else I needed for the conversion I could have free. I fitted this in my mums remote garage with no power & just hand tools & a hand wound drill. I made a lift from old scaffolding. When fitted the front was too short for the engine & radiator so, I lengthened the front of the car by 3". The brakes I fitted were from a Riley 1.5 along with the half shafts which being identical but hardened more at the ends so they would not shear as the standard ones did twice. I also changed the standard moggy 4.22:1 diff for a Riley 3.9:1, giving more top speed. It ran over 112mph at York.

I then fitted a servo from a Ford Consul. A home made prop shaft. I also removed the standard master cylinder that was in the lower chassis & made a new pedal box to take it. Result a car that wiped out all my mates cars. Anglia 1500 gt pre crossflow. Cortina gt. Capri 1500gt. The only one faster to 60 was a Mk1 Lotus cortina, but only just. Did it last. Well no. It ran great for a year & then the chassis gave way where the traveller alloy body met the original car. Not a design fault SOD. Great British engineered rust. The Dam thing was rotten. The only welding gear i had at that time was Propane & Oxygen & as many will know, causes oxidisation. So would a Tom Senior take a 1hp motor. Of course it would. The column is twice the strength of some of the Asian derivatives. The Quill bearings are ample. OK the MT2 is debatable, does anyone know of the breaking point of the mt2. a question I have asked before but not really got a definitive answer to. The moggy went to a guy who was going to restore it for a pricely sum of £30. He came with the cash in a coffee jar, I kid you not. By this time I was an apprentice Electrician & had a little more money so I bought my 1st of many MGB gt's. Don't even ask me what I did to that engine. Fallen asleep yet.

Steve.

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Posted by Steviegtr on 27/03/2020 01:48:15:

My mention of the balance on the top pulley , using a magnet for a tacho was. The thought of a small circular magnet flying around at possibly 3000 rpm, could become unstable & want to fly off to Mars.

Steve.

I did consider some means of fitting the magnet to my lathe and mill but found the one on the mill stays in place at max speed 2500rpm so I havnt bothered and they have never come off.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Stick the magnet on the steel or iron pulley with a dab of epoxy underneath and leave to set. You only need a very small magnet, say 3 x 2 mm. It won't come off nor significantly unbalance the pulley. Remember the larger the radius it's fitted the smaller the unbalance force.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You are likely to suffer chatter and vibration that will limit what you can cut with MT2 and get a poor cut long before it breaks. The vibration may also cause the taper to loosen by vibrating the drawbar loose which can lead to using a bit of pole on the drawbar spanner to cure and excess hammering of the drawbar to realease the taper to change tools

 

Your column may be more rigid that a far eastern machine of a similar size but look at the surface area of the joint between head and column, maybe 4 times that of the shaft that your head is supported on and with less overhang

Edited By JasonB on 27/03/2020 08:33:25

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by not done it yet on 25/03/2020 08:55:51:

My comment is that if you want/need a mill with (seemingly) twice the power, then get a bigger miil.

Cleverer fellows than you designed this mill to use that 1/2HP sized drive. Doubling it should require more than simply changing the motor. I/m rather assuming, here that your aim is to install a 1HP motor? 3/4Hp is possibly too much.

Why a brass ring? Aluminium or steel would be cheaper. Even plastic. Could drill identical holes at 180 degrees and fit one ‘dummy’ opposite the real one. Or what is the difference in density of the magnet and the pulley? Assuming here the pulley is not a pressed steel item. Fitting two identical magnets, opposite to one another, would likely suffice.

Edited By not done it yet on 25/03/2020 08:59:36

Concur.

The quill feed TS head that the OP has was only ever designed and fitted with a 1/2 hp motor.

I have one on my M1. I don't baby any of my machines, and mine is the original TS 3 phase 1/2 hp motor running thru an inverter, and i have never had a problem thinking mmm, i need double the power. And it has regularly drilled 1.250 holes in alloy with a 3MT drill with a 3-2 reducer, not what it was designed to do, but happily does it. I have a 5" flycutter on a 2MT shank – lovely finish. Assortment of end mills, slot drills and slitting saws all work.

Don't baby it, but also work within the parameters of what the machine is telling you.

Re power feed- yeah that would be my first mod on any mill without it.

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by JasonB on 27/03/2020 08:23:34:

You are likely to suffer chatter and vibration that will limit what you can cut with MT2 and get a poor cut long before it breaks. The vibration may also cause the taper to loosen by vibrating the drawbar loose which can lead to using a bit of pole on the drawbar spanner to cure and excess hammering of the drawbar to realease the taper to change tools

Your column may be more rigid that a far eastern machine of a similar size but look at the surface area of the joint between head and column, maybe 4 times that of the shaft that your head is supported on and with less overhang

Edited By JasonB on 27/03/2020 08:33:25

Never ever had a MT2 come loose on my TS quill feed head.

Never overly tightened drawbar either, just a 1/4 turn nip up.

Never had a MT shank stuck that i needed to beat on it.

All the 2MT horror stories of the past have been prolly due to years of storage or previous owners hamfistedness and lack of feel or empathy.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Steviegtr on 26/03/2020 20:23:57:

I wish. Cannot make my mind up if it is a big block or small.

Steve.

Small block

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

Posted by John Haine on 27/03/2020 08:23:23:

Stick the magnet on the steel or iron pulley with a dab of epoxy underneath and leave to set. You only need a very small magnet, say 3 x 2 mm. It won't come off nor significantly unbalance the pulley. Remember the larger the radius it's fitted the smaller the unbalance force.

Are you sure? For a given RPM the unbalance force is directly proportional to the radius. Double the radius, double the force.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Steviegtr on 26/03/2020 20:37:21:

Well SOD gave me a proper ticking. …

Steve.

If it's any consolation I started this morning by putting both feet through one leg of my boxer shorts. Clearly a case of doing what I say rather than what I do…

Dave

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 27/03/2020 10:27:04:

Posted by Steviegtr on 26/03/2020 20:37:21:

Well SOD gave me a proper ticking. …

Steve.

If it's any consolation I started this morning by putting both feet through one leg of my boxer shorts. Clearly a case of doing what I say rather than what I do…

Dave

Ha ha oops. I did that a couple of weeks ago & ended up sprawled on the floor. Balance not what it used to be.

Steve.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by JasonB on 27/03/2020 08:23:34:

You are likely to suffer chatter and vibration that will limit what you can cut with MT2 and get a poor cut long before it breaks. The vibration may also cause the taper to loosen by vibrating the drawbar loose which can lead to using a bit of pole on the drawbar spanner to cure and excess hammering of the drawbar to realease the taper to change tools

Your column may be more rigid that a far eastern machine of a similar size but look at the surface area of the joint between head and column, maybe 4 times that of the shaft that your head is supported on and with less overhang

Edited By JasonB on 27/03/2020 08:33:25

Now I can understand that logic. Thanks Jason.

Steve.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

When I changed the spindle on the museums light vertical to R8, I decided to use a 1 hp motor, even when the drill mill sat next to it had 1 1/2 hp, also with R8. 1/2 hp is plenty for MT2, any more and you will definitely see the lack of stiffness. I notice the flexibility of MT2 frequently in the tailstock of the lathe which is not stressed sideways to the extent of a mill spindle.

[Michael BriggsParticipant @michaelbriggs82422]

Posted by Steviegtr on 26/03/2020 20:57:34:

This one is even bigger & a working Hemi motor. Very rare these days.

Steve.

It is definitely a small block, you can see it under the baseball cap.

 

Edited By Michael Briggs on 27/03/2020 20:47:52

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

If your having the wheels i'm having the engine.

Steve.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Well I finished the X-Axis Mondeo mod today. It seems to work quite well & only time will tell. A few pics & one of the wiring diagram in case any one wants a copy. Same for any machine. The Tacho works great. I did end up making a circular disc out of mild steel. Bored a hole to take the magnet & bonded the ring on top of the Alloy pulley.

Lots of pictures in my album to see. The only thing I am not happy about is the speed controller. It is not very good. It's what £6 gets you I guess. Will look for a better one.

Steve.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Well after the txt message I received today from The NHS. It seems I am at high risk of infection. I must stay at home for 12 weeks. Darn it. So my look forward to visiting Tesco on a Sunday morning has gone out the window. So now I need lots of idea's to do in the workshop.

Steve.

[Andy CarruthersParticipant @andycarruthers33275]

Hi Steve,

Would you please post photos showing how the motor is connected to the X drive?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Andy, look in his album, plenty of photos there.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Looks like you are making a neat job of it.

But, I do share the concerns about newbies, who are seemingly unaware of their limitations, and strip a functioning machine tool without the skill to understand what they are really doing, so that what started as a good accurate machine finishes up as an expensive doorstop, owned by a very disillusioned body.

Maybe, as a lifelong engineer, I err on the side of being overcautious. But once some unknown mechanism comes apart scattering unseen bits everywhere, so that you don't know what you are looking for, or if you have found all the bits, that may explain it?

Howard

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 08/04/2020 13:03:42:

Looks like you are making a neat job of it.

But, I do share the concerns about newbies, who are seemingly unaware of their limitations, and strip a functioning machine tool without the skill to understand what they are really doing, so that what started as a good accurate machine finishes up as an expensive doorstop, owned by a very disillusioned body.

Maybe, as a lifelong engineer, I err on the side of being overcautious. But once some unknown mechanism comes apart scattering unseen bits everywhere, so that you don't know what you are looking for, or if you have found all the bits, that may explain it?

Howard

You sound like my dad when he saw me with my Morris minor gearbox laid out in bits. Broken 2nd to 3rd gear locking bush. 10s 6p from Appleyards.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 08/04/2020 13:03:42:

Looks like you are making a neat job of it.

But, I do share the concerns about newbies, who are seemingly unaware of their limitations, and strip a functioning machine tool without the skill to understand what they are really doing, so that what started as a good accurate machine finishes up as an expensive doorstop, owned by a very disillusioned body.

Maybe, as a lifelong engineer, I err on the side of being overcautious. But once some unknown mechanism comes apart scattering unseen bits everywhere, so that you don't know what you are looking for, or if you have found all the bits, that may explain it?

Howard

 

A Message for Howard, whoever you are.

Just to add. Because some people take an engineering career for there vocation does not make them good at it. You are born with it. That was what I was going to do when I left school but my dad stopped me. He said the money is in the Building trade, he got me a job as an apprentice Electrician, after 6 months as a Sheet metal worker, . He was right & I retired from it very fruitful. In between I bought over 200 write off vehicles as a hobby, including motorcycles, scooters, cars, & a few Motorhomes. Every single one of them was rebuilt by me to the exacting standards of a new vehicle. Not one complaint from my customers.Leaving me time to do what I always loved most. Making things. Modifying things & dreaming up stupid idea's . Much to the distaste of a lot of members on this forum that seem to think .

Unless you buy a set of plans for a Blenkinsop engine you are not worthy. I spent many hours with my unfortunately very poorly friend, in railway sheds measuring up old steam engines.

Then we would convert the measurements to a scale he wanted. We would spend an age making wooden patterns of the parts. Then a Foundry in Castleford would cast the parts for him.

I used to modify the Borg Warner T25 5 speed gearbox from the Sierra Cosworth's to take over 500 BHP reliably.

Also tuned many Nissan Skyline gtr 33 vspec engines to run a reliable 1000 BHP. So before you accuse someone of not knowing what they are doing & will loose some parts . THINK WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

To conclude my ranting, I will say. I took a lovely old Tom Senior Milling machine & brought it to the 21's century.

I may add & will be hung drawn & quartered by Jason & co. These old machines are much better than the you know what's

Steve. & very proud to be. So stick that in your pipe & smoke it. N.L.Y.B.D.I.T.D.

Edited By Steviegtr on 09/04/2020 03:19:41

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Steviegtr on 09/04/2020 03:06:19:

I may add & will be hung drawn & quartered by Jason & co. These old machines are much better than the you know what's

In what respect Steve?

I would say that that yours is built to a better standard and more rigid than a modern day bench top mill.

However the fact that you and the previous owner(s) have had to do a lot of modifications would seem to suggest that it was not so good to start with in it's as supplied form, lets see.

VFD added to make speed change easier and also increase max spindle speed.

DRO added for ease of use and improved accuracy

Power feed added

Tacho added

All of these came as standard on the far eastern machine you were considering so wold it be fair to say that is better spec'd.

You have the MT spindle that most on here would rate less than an R8, again R8 standard on the import

You still seem to think it needs a bigger motor so is the one on it not better than the more powerful one on the import.

You are still limited by the slender MT2 tooling but that is obviously" better" than the more rigid R8 of the import. The slender MT2 will probably also prevent you making the most of the rest of the machines rigidity.

You have play in the Y axis and won't be able to buy new leadscrew and/or nut which is obviously better than being able to buy spares for the imported machines. Or at least easy to buy Trapizoidal screws and nuts that could be made to fit unlike harder to source ACME.

But so long as you are happy with it that is all that matters in the end.

J

Edited By JasonB on 09/04/2020 10:19:47

[Andy CarruthersParticipant @andycarruthers33275]

Thanks Jason I should have looked at photos first

Personally I can’t see anything wrong with the mod which Steve has produced, unless I am mistaken, there doesn’t seem to be an issue with removing and restoring back to original if desired

I am not a qualified mechanical engineer nor professional machinist, I purely enjoy my hobby and am developing my skills as time permits, learning from many people here

And for what it is worth, I have modified my WM180 to improve usability and safety, at the end of the day I have enjoyed every minute too

It may be unpopular to say so, but hats off to you Steve for making the effort and for showcasing your mod

[Michael BriggsParticipant @michaelbriggs82422]

I have a Senior mill but I have no desire to fit a power feed because for me the mechanical feedback from the machine is invaluable. If I did I would make sure it had a sensitive means of torque limitation.

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