Titanic submersible

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Mick B1 on 22/06/2023 13:52:54:

Posted by Bill Phinn on 21/06/2023 19:05:08:

Posted by Chris Pearson 1 on 21/06/2023 19:03:10:

I struggle to sympathize with those involved because I think that Titanic should be left alone – it is a grave.

I thought visiting graves was an acceptable everyday occurrence.

Graves where somebody's remains have been laid to rest with due process and ceremony aren't the same as chaotic sites of multiple deaths.

So presumably you disapprove of visits to historic battlefields.

[JAParticipant @ja]

I am surprised that Elon Musk has not offered his submarine.

Apologies for the flippancy.

JA

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 22/06/2023 15:06:00:

Posted by Mick B1 on 22/06/2023 13:52:54:

Posted by Bill Phinn on 21/06/2023 19:05:08:

Posted by Chris Pearson 1 on 21/06/2023 19:03:10:

I struggle to sympathize with those involved because I think that Titanic should be left alone – it is a grave.

I thought visiting graves was an acceptable everyday occurrence.

Graves where somebody's remains have been laid to rest with due process and ceremony aren't the same as chaotic sites of multiple deaths.

So presumably you disapprove of visits to historic battlefields.

It is strange. But there is something very visceral about being a witness to death even long after the event. Even seeing the skull of an ancient human ancestor is not like seeing an ordinary artefact. I also know people who have been deeply moved, even changed, by the experience of visiting Auschwitz.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by JA on 22/06/2023 15:47:39:

I am surprised that Elon Musk has not offered his submarine.

Apologies for the flippancy.

JA

He's arranging a cage fight with Mark Zuckerberg.

I'll keep my opinions for a more appropriate social media channel.

Neil

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

On a similar vein, for those who have Netflix or similar I highly recommend "Last Breath"
https://www.netflix.com/fr-en/title/80215139

Robert.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Dark tourism or Necro tourism is big business

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/06/2023 16:01:10:

Posted by Bill Phinn on 22/06/2023 15:06:00:

Posted by Mick B1 on 22/06/2023 13:52:54:

Posted by Bill Phinn on 21/06/2023 19:05:08:

Posted by Chris Pearson 1 on 21/06/2023 19:03:10:

I struggle to sympathize with those involved because I think that Titanic should be left alone – it is a grave.

I thought visiting graves was an acceptable everyday occurrence.

Graves where somebody's remains have been laid to rest with due process and ceremony aren't the same as chaotic sites of multiple deaths.

So presumably you disapprove of visits to historic battlefields.

 

It is strange. But there is something very visceral about being a witness to death even long after the event. Even seeing the skull of an ancient human ancestor is not like seeing an ordinary artefact. I also know people who have been deeply moved, even changed, by the experience of visiting Auschwitz.

Neil

All of those things are within the scope of most people of moderate means who may have knowledge of the lives of relatives who were affected. I didn't lose anybody at the death camps so I don't think I've any business there.

Spending ostentatiously grotesque amounts of wealth visiting somebody else's disaster isn't something I'd feel comfortable about.

Edited By Mick B1 on 22/06/2023 17:04:54

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Sounds like it may all be over ? A debris field has it seems been spotted ! God rest their souls. Noel.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Ghastly news item on LBC

https://apple.news/A4B0ZzCCeQiSfZzjaKZ-KsA

MichaelG.

.

Direct Link :

 https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/ive-broken-some-rules-oceangate-titanic-submarine-window-pressure/

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 22/06/2023 18:21:25

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, just heard on 6 O'clock news that the landing frame and the rear cover have been found on the sea floor.

Regards Nick.

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

Pop! Goes the submarine.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

What an utterly crass remark, Fulmen

MichaelG.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Mick B1 on 22/06/2023 16:58:24:

All of those things are within the scope of most people of moderate means who may have knowledge of the lives of relatives who were affected. I didn't lose anybody at the death camps so I don't think I've any business there.

Spending ostentatiously grotesque amounts of wealth visiting somebody else's disaster isn't something I'd feel comfortable about.

I infer two things from this:

• That if visiting the scene of someone else's disaster isn't grotesquely expensive but in fact highly affordable, you could feel comfortable with either yourself or others doing it.

• That you believe the only people who have any business visiting concentration camps, or sites of historic disasters generally, are people who know they have relatives who suffered or died at the sites in question.

Are my inferences correct?

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

Yeah. Don't have much sympathy for rich tourists disturbing a grave site for fun.

Edit: Bill makes a valid point. But I still think there is a difference between remembering something like the Holocaust and respecting a grave site.

Also, people are drowning in the Mediterranean every day without anyone giving a hoot. But the moment a couple of rich a***oles go down the whole world holds it's breath. The only real sad part is that Musk wasn't on board.

 

Edited By Fulmen on 22/06/2023 19:38:53

Edited By JasonB on 23/06/2023 07:41:09

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Is is tourism or is it voyeurism

[JAParticipant @ja]

What controls are there, or can be put in place, to stop this happening all over again?

As I see it if someone has the money he can build anything without any real expertise, sell tickets to punters, who are always out there,and try to go down to the Titanic.

JA

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 22/06/2023 19:25:05:

Posted by Mick B1 on 22/06/2023 16:58:24:

All of those things are within the scope of most people of moderate means who may have knowledge of the lives of relatives who were affected. I didn't lose anybody at the death camps so I don't think I've any business there.

Spending ostentatiously grotesque amounts of wealth visiting somebody else's disaster isn't something I'd feel comfortable about.

I infer two things from this:

• That if visiting the scene of someone else's disaster isn't grotesquely expensive but in fact highly affordable, you could feel comfortable with either yourself or others doing it.

• That you believe the only people who have any business visiting concentration camps, or sites of historic disasters generally, are people who know they have relatives who suffered or died at the sites in question.

Are my inferences correct?

There's something in your inferences but they're my personal beliefs as to what I think's right for me. I'm happy to express them for others to see but wouldn't seek to enforce them.

My missus and I actually did visit the Somme battlefields twenty years ago or so. After looking at the crater at La Bosselle (?), and High Wood, and chatting to a collector delighted with the shrapnel balls he'd picked up, we both began to feel there was something parasitic about wallowing in imagined emotions of those caught up in lethal events over which they'd had little if any control. We felt creeped out, and shortened the time on the Somme in favour of visiting relatives in the Vendee.

So yes, I do wonder why people dwell so much on the crimes, follies and misfortunes of humankind, especially spending sums that most will never have as disposable on doing so. But that's me – you can think what you like, as will I.

[Frank GorseParticipant @frankgorse]

Never used the “ignore member” button till now but don’t want to read anything else fulmen has to say

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, it doesn't matter what one's views are of visiting any shipwreck, those who have perished had probably earned the money they payed for the trip, and I doubt they deserved what has happened. I feel sorry for the nineteen year old mostly, having his life cut short at such a young age, being just three years younger than my late elder brother, both my siblings and myself realise how much he missed out in life. Rich or poor, young or old, it's always a tragedy for loved one's lives.

Regards Nick.

[Hugh Stewart-Smith 1Participant @hughstewart-smith1]

My sympathies are with the partners and family members of those lost at sea and as soon as I heard the news of the deaths made a donation to the RNLI as my way of saying they didn't die in vain as I hadn't given to that particular organisation before.

They were all precious human beings who did not deserve to die.

Hugh

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

+1 to ignore Fulmen, what a jerk!

Martin

[Chris Pearson 1Participant @chrispearson1]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 22/06/2023 12:43:16:

I got the slightest hint, a few decades ago, when I was sealed inside our ‘altitude test chamber’

This was a comparatively large vessel 6’ diameter and 30’ long, with two doors … a full diameter one at the end, and a personal access hatch towards the rear. Both of these were clamped closed with big hand-wheels, and then the chamber pulled-down to a mere ‘10,000 feet’

All very trivial compared with the present situation !

It very quickly became obvious to me that I was utterly and completely at the mercy of things [and people] outside.

MichaelG.

In my time in RN, I was both compressed and decompressed. Going into a chamber from which 3/4 of the air has been removed is not an easy thought and as Michael says, one has to trust the operators of the facility. (One of the problems with a decompression chamber is that everybody farts a lot!)

Back to Titan, there is a small mercy that it appears that the occupants suffered sudden death rather than lingering on the sea bed whilst the oxygen ran out.

[Roger Williams 2Participant @rogerwilliams2]

I believe that the pressure vessel has been located 1600 feet from the bows of the ship. I cant understand anyone wanting to risk their lives to visit a grave site , but each to their own. Horrible thing to happen to them though , especially the 19 yr old lad. Wonder what Dr Robert Ballard thought of the vessel….

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Chris Pearson 1 on 22/06/2023 22:16:21:…

…

Back to Titan, there is a small mercy that it appears that the occupants suffered sudden death rather than lingering on the sea bed whilst the oxygen ran out.

+1. Thank goodness the banging noises heard were not from desperate sub crew. An implosion would have been over before they knew it. Still tragic for the families of all those on board.

Edited By Hopper on 22/06/2023 23:33:17

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Well, now we know, though I am not sure if dying by anoxia would be better than the collapse of the hull. The assessments of oxygen supply led me to think that had the submersible been intact, the occupants would more likely have succumbed to the cold; and one effect of approaching hypothermia is the loss of mental faculties making it very hard to make the right choices or react to other people properly, even in critical situations. (The ocean floor temperature is about 4ºC.)

Looking back up the thread, which I'd not previously spotted,

– The remark about the claim that the Titanic was "unsinkable" is so crassly repeated over and over again. No-one at the time who actually knew anything about ships ever said that! It was a foolish mis-interpretation by some newspaper hack, of a far more measured and qualified hope in a professional engineering journal. So comments on here about "hubris" are as wrong and out of place as others denigrating people's wealth – and let's not forget most of those who died or survived on the Titanic were not particularly wealthy by 1912 standards, but even if they were, water and cold respect no riches.

– Yes, the ship became a grave; as now has that submersible, but there are no human remains from the original disaster down there. Just pairs of shoes…. (Dr. Ballard's original explorations of the wreck photographed some.) I am less worried about expeditions to view wrecks like the liner, or the Hood and Bismark, than I am about taking anything from them.

– The search area had to be wide both on the surface and on the sea-bed. It was a small object in a vast area of both. Apart from the darkness and natural sediment in the water limiting lamp range, and the difficulties in searching a very wide area of deep, noisy ocean by sonar, there is a slow current across the site so searching for the submersible would have needed to consider it drifting.

– I had wondered what emergency ballast / buoyancy methods this thing had. Jacque Pickard's Trieste bathyscaphe with which he descended to the floor of the Marianas Trench – some three times deeper than the Titanic's site – had pig-iron ballast held, or latched, by an electromagnet so fail-safe, so presumably it was buoyant anyway.

– It may be that we will never know how this vessel was lost, unless the wreckage is raised for analysis and to give the victims proper funerals. I do not know if that is intended, or if it will be left as a grave. That should be for the families to decide.

There are few areas of ocean that are not graves; but at least the locations of the Titanic, the Lusitania, the Hood and the Bismark, are known. Many more are unknown.

[Author]

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