Titanic submersible

[lee websterParticipant @leewebster72680]

I sincerely hope they are found alive and well.

There is also a part of me that wonders if someone in Holywood is already writing a script, and waiting to write the ending.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

We often have people visiting the church and churchyard in looking for ancestors, often Americans but also one time locals who have moved away. Also around 30 candles a week are lit in respect of this. Last year some Americans came to see the tomb of a relative from 1637. Few mention the 40 war graves though.

[JAParticipant @ja]

It appears that the design of this thing was not even validated by a second party let alone properly tested. Under these circumstances it could not have been insured. Try that with your 5" gauge steam locomotive running on a public/club track.

Often people visit graves for good reason. I have an uncle who died during the Michael Offensive and I visit his battalion's plaque whenever I am passing. I know that battlefield tourism, almost as old as the battlefield, has included cemetery visits but this is hardly so for the Titanic. As for the citizen science justification……….. It is just a tick on an extreme bucket list.

JA

[Bryan Cedar 1Participant @bryancedar1]

I cannot understand why the search is over such a large area as surely if the sub was going down over the Titanic, it should be close to it. It should not have moved far from the site on which it was diving.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I don't think repeatedly going from unstressed to compression causes fatigue, and cracks do not propogate through carbon fibre matrices if they are properly designed/constructed. You can get low cycle fatigue, but it is more often associated with thousands or millions of cycles. This thing won't have done anything like that.

The usual way to make electronic things work under external pressure is to fill them with non conducting oil. Might be a bit more difficult to make them buoyant at the same time

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I don't think repeatedly going from unstressed to compression causes fatigue, and cracks do not propogate through carbon fibre matrices if they are properly designed/constructed. You can get low cycle fatigue, but it is more often associated with thousands or millions of cycles. This thing won't have done anything like that.

The usual way to make electronic things work under external pressure is to fill them with non conducting oil. Might be a bit more difficult to make them buoyant at the same time

[mike TParticipant @miket56243]

Bryan,

The USCG ships and planes can only search the sea surface. They need to expand the surface search area to account for time and tide. They have no deep water search capability. not until the French research ship arrives, later this evening, with it's deep water ROV. Too little, too late.

[Chris Pearson 1Participant @chrispearson1]

Posted by JA on 21/06/2023 20:37:04:

Often people visit graves for good reason. I have an uncle who died during the Michael Offensive and I visit his battalion's plaque whenever I am passing. I know that battlefield tourism, almost as old as the battlefield, has included cemetery visits but this is hardly so for the Titanic. As for the citizen science justification……….. It is just a tick on an extreme bucket list.

My rather nebulous "bucket list" is to visit the WWI cemeteries. That would not be to gawp, but to pay my respects. I don't think that those billionaires went down there to pay their respects: they could perfectly well have done that on the surface.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

THIS is encouraging:

A submarine expert says “banging” noises detected in 30-minute intervals by rescuers searching for the Titan submersible were “encouraging” rescuers that the five people on board were still alive. … submariners are taught that if they’re stuck in a disabled submarine on the hour and the half-hour they bang the hull for three minutes, then they stop. They don’t make any more noise.

He added, “So the fact that we’re hearing banging at 30-minute internals tells me that the people inside are sending a message that says, ‘We understand that you would be looking for us and this is how you might expect us to react.’ So, it’s very encouraging.”

Let's hope they are still alive down there and that the rescuers can hook a cable onto them sometime soon while they still have oxygen.

It does indicate that the Titan must be snagged on something and unable to break loose, rather than suffering a mechanical malfunction. As the article linked to in the OP of this thread says, they have seven different ways of manually dumping ballast or inflating a balloon to get to the surface in an emergency.

So good news they may well be still alive to be found, but bad news they will need to be untangled from whatever they are snagged on before they can be surfaced.

Can not imagine what it would be like to be sitting down there waiting.

Edited By Hopper on 22/06/2023 06:18:51

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Ady1 on 21/06/2023 17:56:13:

Apparently it costs about £200k for a seat

For £200k they didn't even get a seat. Just a place on the floor.

[Ches Green UKParticipant @chesgreenuk]

Is the USCG in charge of coordinating the rescue mission, or is it a bit of a free for all?

And why has an aircraft carrying a UK team of deepwater rescue experts (+ equipment) sat on the tarmac since Monday awaiting 'paperwork' clearance? …. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/06/20/missing-submarine-titan-titanic-rescue-mission-blocked/

I know this is a rare event, but at least let anyone who might be able to contribute get as close to the scene as quickly as possible, and then assess if they can contribute.

Ches

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Ches Green UK on 22/06/2023 07:24:22:

Is the USCG in charge of coordinating the rescue mission, or is it a bit of a free for all?

And why has an aircraft carrying a UK team of deepwater rescue experts (+ equipment) sat on the tarmac since Monday awaiting 'paperwork' clearance? …. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/06/20/missing-submarine-titan-titanic-rescue-mission-blocked/

I know this is a rare event, but at least let anyone who might be able to contribute get as close to the scene as quickly as possible, and then assess if they can contribute.

Ches

 

 

Not sure who the top cocky is. It is in international waters, closer to Canada than US. Seems to be US and Canadian coast guards involved, plus various navies. According to THIS there are already three good submersibles on the job so they may consider that enough without getting in each other's way? But you would think more units could cover a larger area without crossover.

I have to say the three submersibles (one is a robot) detailed in the link all look a heck of a lot more sophisticated than the length of drain pipe the billionaires are stuck in. Laughable by comparison, if it were not so tragic.

Edited By Hopper on 22/06/2023 07:42:08

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Ches Green UK on 22/06/2023 07:24:22:

And why has an aircraft carrying a UK team of deepwater rescue experts (+ equipment) sat on the tarmac since Monday awaiting 'paperwork' clearance? …. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/06/20/missing-submarine-titan-titanic-rescue-mission-blocked/

THIS latest report says the Magellan is now being loaded on a plane in Jersey after FINALLY getting permission. But it will take 48 hours to get to the site so too late to save any lives. Delayed by red tape. Government efficiency at its finest.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

If I understand rightly comms was lost after 1h 35m yet the decent takes 2h+ so how is entanglement possible ? Discarded nets ?

One system of ballast detachment was automatic after 16h ?

It has no means of comms on the surface ?

Why is it not painted yellow or orange ?

No means of escape, even if on the surface ?

The "designers" had never hears of Sods law ?

I just pray for the poor souls on board. Noel.

[RobinParticipant @robin]

I thought about air bags but a scuba cylinder at about 200 bar can't do much inflating when the water pressure outside is 400 bar

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

No, obviously the designers were ignorant of Sod's Law. Not much in the way of extra safety system redundancies or emergency standby gear like extra CO2 scrubber chemicals to keep the levels down in the unvented vessel. No mention of thermal insulation or clothes etc to help withstand the 0 degree conditions for days at a time. All operating on the assumption nothing will go seriously wrong. Or if it does, you are dead. And people never really believe they are going to die until they are looking it in the face.

Possibly a lost trawler net entanglement, yes. Lots of them out there drifting around the world for years on end before they disintegrate. And Newfoundland is a big fishing area, or was. Usually those "ghost nets" are killing the wildlife. Might be a bit different this time.

The lack of comms is very strange. The lack of some kind of underwater emergency position beacon "pinger" even more so. If they did become entangled in a ghost net, they could have drifted many many miles away by now along with it, if they were unable to lodge on the bottom or come up to the surface.

No mention of further banging noises. Not looking too good.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Robin on 22/06/2023 10:32:48:

I thought about air bags but a scuba cylinder at about 200 bar can't do much inflating when the water pressure outside is 400 bar

That is a good point too. One of their 7 ways to emergency surface is an inflatable bag. But at 6,000psi sea water pressure, a big ask.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

According to the Independent :

Channel 5 has changed its schedule on Thursday (22 June) evening to include a new documentary titled Titanic Sub: Lost at Sea.

The live special will, of course, focus on the missing tourist submarine, which was lost on an underwater expedition to view the Titanic shipwreck on Sunday (18 June)

The live special will air at 7pm – just hours after the Titan submersible is due to run out of oxygen – and is presented by former Football Focus host Dan Walker.

.

The debate about lack of taste/respect has, understandably, already started.

MichaelG.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Wow. No doubt a football show host will bring special expertise to the subject.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Hopper said "And people never really believe they are going to die until they are looking it in the face".

Dear Hopper, I'm affraid, now in my early 70s I have come to realise that I will die and to that end I am now starting the slow wind down to my demise ! I will today scrap an alexander mill I know I will never have time to renovate and the bridgeport I have may well go the same way. I had so many BIG ideas but time is running out.

I would never dispute an Englishmans right to go down to the sea in ships, one of the few last great freedoms we still have, and I would not want to see innovation stiffled but some very searching questions should be asked about this venture – when the fuss has died down ! I still pray for a good outcome. Noel.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Hopper on 22/06/2023 06:18:16:

[…]

Can not imagine what it would be like to be sitting down there waiting.

.

I got the slightest hint, a few decades ago, when I was sealed inside our ‘altitude test chamber’

This was a comparatively large vessel 6’ diameter and 30’ long, with two doors … a full diameter one at the end, and a personal access hatch towards the rear. Both of these were clamped closed with big hand-wheels, and then the chamber pulled-down to a mere ‘10,000 feet’

All very trivial compared with the present situation !

It very quickly became obvious to me that I was utterly and completely at the mercy of things [and people] outside.

MichaelG.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I'm indebted to Bill Phinn for 'taphophilia', a condition I clearly have. Nothing cheers me up compared with standing next to a famous grave, and thinking, 'you may have captured Moscow mate, but I'm still alive.'

There's a danger upsetting news gets taken out of perspective. Much worse is going on around the world!

The H&S aspect of this particular incident doesn't worry me much, and I hope this type of endeavour doesn't get banned after an emotional knee-jerk. It seems perfectly reasonable to me for those involved to assess and choose take the risk. Their choice, and if it goes wrong, we've all got to go sooner or later. I'd rather die in an accident whilst visiting the Titanic than of dementia.

Hopper said: THIS latest report says the Magellan is now being loaded on a plane in Jersey after FINALLY getting permission. But it will take 48 hours to get to the site so too late to save any lives. Delayed by red tape. Government efficiency at its finest. I think that's wrong too: why should taxpayers be asked to pay for this? From the latest BBC report, 5 specialist ships are searching the vicinity, plus aircraft from the US and Canadian Coast Guards, and more is on the way. How much this costing, who is paying, and – even if successful – is rescuing 4 trippers who signed a heavy disclaimer worth the effort? As a government decision, why spend more on this rescue attempt than rubber boats sinking in the Channel? (Please don't use this hypothetical ethical question to start a political debate on the forum!) So I don't think the delay was due to 'red-tape', more likely someone took a difficult humanitarian decision knowing that it's a waste of time and money. Relevant that UK government borrowing this year is greater than the UK's gross domestic product.

I too hope for a good outcome, but the circumstances suggest a catastrophic failure. The submersible suddenly lost communications after which the pilot failed to resurface manually. Nor has the sub resurfaced after the ballast was supposed to drop automatically after 16 hours. Best hope are the banging noises, but the ocean is full of noise, with plenty of other explanations for it. I'm afraid that we know so far is consistent with the hull collapsing or developing a leak, resulting in a quick end.

Not nice, but we all face death as an occupational hazard of living. As Woody Allen joked, 'I'm not afraid of dying, I just don't want to be there when it happens.' My main concern is becoming a burden on my family and the state. Last thing I want is to be is a useless shell, officiously kept alive with no benefit to me or anyone else.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 22/06/2023 13:19:56

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 21/06/2023 19:05:08:

Posted by Chris Pearson 1 on 21/06/2023 19:03:10:

I struggle to sympathize with those involved because I think that Titanic should be left alone – it is a grave.

I thought visiting graves was an acceptable everyday occurrence.

Graves where somebody's remains have been laid to rest with due process and ceremony aren't the same as chaotic sites of multiple deaths.

I haven't heard of house-priced visits for the extremely well-heeled being available to the wreck sites of Hood, Bismarck or any of the other myriad ships sunk in war.

Even the Lusitania wreck, relatively accessible though now bizarrely privately-owned, is a protected site requiring permission to visit.

I wouldn't wish the potential catastrophe of Titan on anyone, but I do think there's something ghoulish about such obsession on the fate of Titanic.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 22/06/2023 13:18:03:

[…]

Hopper said: THIS latest report says the Magellan is now being loaded on a plane in Jersey after FINALLY getting permission. But it will take 48 hours to get to the site so too late to save any lives. Delayed by red tape. Government efficiency at its finest. I think that's wrong too: why should taxpayers be asked to pay for this?

[…]

 

.

Fact-Check time, I think:

I would infer, from this statement on ITV News, that the delay was due to import controls:

The equipment was previously stuck in Jersey due to an issue importing the rescue gear into the USA.

Sorry, haven’t got time to check it myself just now.

Yes, the taxpayer ultimately foots the bill … but which taxpayer ?

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 22/06/2023 14:44:12

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Titanic sub: Safety concerns raised about missing submersible

**LINK**

[Author]

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