Time and Money. But also ageing.

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

There are two other threads running, one about buying unknown tooling (MAX-T) and the other about Brand Names. It seems to me that possibly the one thing that is missing from these threads is the consideration of time, money, and age.

For example. 50 years ago, when I got married and the children started arriving (never did understand how that occurred) we didn't have over much money, indeed I can well remember doing financial balancing acts in order to avoid defaulting on debts. But life seemed so very much simpler back then. One electric supplier, one gas supplier, one 'phone supplier. Even the buildings insurer was chosen by the mortgage company. There was, (or should that be were) three TV stations (C4 didn't start until 1982).

I can even remember long before then, that as a teenager (were they even invented back then) in the 1960's there was the Light programme, the regional Home Services and for the highbrows amongst us, the Third Programme. Plus, for the teenagers, Radio Luxembourg on 208 meters. As far as the (posh voice here please) BBC was concerned, anything to do with "pop" music was relegated to the last request on Two Way Family Favourites, and even then some records (posh voice again please) simply were not suitable for the BBC.

Entertainment was self-made, cinema or a dance hall on Saturday evenings. And don't forget, the buses ran until 11.30pm, non of your 24 hour (eg 23:50 hrs) stuff here please.

We didn't have much money. Car maintenance for a lot of people was DIY. OK, cars were a lot simpler as was a lot of household stuff. But as time went on, pay improved, stuff became more reliable but at the same time less able to be DIY'd. Regulations were introduced, restrictions increased – who can remember the time when there was one speed limit of 30mph? And so on.

So now, I'm 79, been married 51 years, the kids have left home, two of the grandchildren have either left home or are trying so to do. We have money available (not bragging here – no mortgage, no kids to support etc), but what about time? I'm concious that time is marching on. I'm not a well man. But now I have to decide which 'phone company to use, which electric supplier, which gas…. I go out in the car and I am faced with six different speed limits. I have Freeview, Netflix, Sky, etc to choose from, and I am bemused by it all. And I feel that I am being forced into a complex life style which takes time to sort out. And that I don't like. I can see that choice was supposed to be a "good" thing and should have resulted in the efficient surviving with the inefficient going to the wall. But has it? All I can see is the ever increasing cost of services just to live, let alone for hobbies.

I don't want to go back to the '60's & '70's. Or maybe I do? Is there a case to be made for one company serving the whole of the British Isles for each of the major services and for which everyone pays the same price? Is there a case for removing so much choice? Are we in danger of being overloaded by "choice".

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 17/07/2022 11:48:47:

I don't want to go back to the '60's & '70's. Or maybe I do? Is there a case to be made for one company serving the whole of the British Isles for each of the major services and for which everyone pays the same price? Is there a case for removing so much choice? Are we in danger of being overloaded by "choice".

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

I am curious to know how we have gone from numerous suppliers (eg Birmingham Gas) to a National organisation (British Gas) to numerous suppliers with an overarching authority (Ofgem) and far closer government control and intervention.

Isn't that more people and more work?

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

Posted by Nick Clarke 3 on 17/07/2022 11:55:03:

I am curious to know how we have gone from numerous suppliers (eg Birmingham Gas) to a National organisation (British Gas) to numerous suppliers with an overarching authority (Ofgem) and far closer government control and intervention.

Isn't that more people and more work?

It's the confluence of two well known bits of economics, coming up against politics.

Economies of Scale tends to drive the creation of ever larger units – simply because they can do things more efficiently (cheaply) than small suppliers and consequently can offer lower prices while still making a profit. Birmingham Gas -> British Gas. They offer lower prices based on lower costs until they become market dominant when Monopolistic ( profit maximisation by increasing prices) behaviour starts to arise.

Profit gouging monopolies are unpopular with consumers ( read voters), consequently governments try to limit their behaviour – either by regulating them (Ofgem), nationalising them, or by trying to create competition. All of which increases cost which is ultimately paid for by the consumer or taxpayer.

The ideal model is a benign monopoly which minimises its costs through economies of scale, and passes those benefits on to its customers out of the goodness of its heart. Trouble is benign monopolies tend to inhabit the same universe as unicorns, hens teeth and unobtanium!

PS I was once told  that the difference between the rich and the poor  was simple – rich people spend money to save time, while poor people spend time to save money. Not strictly true in the world of hobbies, but  then hobbyists tend to have enough money to have spare time.

Edited By Peter Cook 6 on 17/07/2022 12:20:37

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 17/07/2022 11:48:47:

And I feel that I am being forced into a complex life style which takes time to sort out. And that I don't like.

Well me too Peter – The choice to keep life as simple as possible erodes us daily. A couple of years back – local Nationwide branch – branch assistant – "We don't appear to have details of your mobile phone number" Er we don't actually have one and don't particularly want one either. "Well you need to get one you know you will need one before too long"

No still haven't got to grips with that one.

Like you, I approach my eighties – I'm glad I've lived my life when I did and have had a good one but I really am glad I'm not setting out as a young man at this point in time.

Time – now theres a provocative word – to some it can be wasted at a whim but at our age every minute is precious. Giving ones time becomes ever more a consideration when one considers how diminishing on a daily basis it is and especially when it's obvious it's not appreciated for what it is to us (at our age)

As I often say 'I'm getting old – and I don't bloody like it!'

My sympathies all round, I certainly empathise with you

Stay well, Tug

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Capitalism works better if they deconstruct industry and society

But some industries are better Nationalised

Deconstructing The Post Office Network was a catastrophe for the elderly for example

But politics means one spanner has to fit every nut, even if it can't, the capitalist spanner or the socialist spanner

The correct answer is "-use your common bluddy sense-" for a sector to benefit society

but they won't do that because they are as dogma ridden as the clergy ever were

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 17/07/2022 11:48:47:

There are two other threads running, one about buying unknown tooling (MAX-T) and the other about Brand Names. It seems to me that possibly the one thing that is missing from these threads is the consideration of time, money, and age.

…

That's right, but plenty of other factors in play as well. One is the march of technology. Large numbers of jobs and ways of doing things have disappeared. For example, many of my friends were Post Office Engineers, well trained, enjoying good pay and conditions with a variety of work, a decent proportion of which was interesting and fulfilling. Mostly happy bunnies, content they were benefiting the public. Loads of people were needed to maintain a complex and delicate electro-mechanical telecommunications system, some of it antique. Apparently, a job for life!

Unfortunately, phones were too expensive for most people, it took ages to have them installed, and in use they were much subject to snap, crackle, & pop, wrong numbers, dropped and crossed lines, distortion, and un-obtainables. As a service, costly and rather unreliable, with mediocre availability. I remember having to book long distance calls (in the UK, international was even worse), and then waiting for the operator to call back when a line was free. Not unusual to be hurried along by operators interrupting to ask if we'd finished yet. Bad for consumers and even worse for commerce relying on good communications. Not entirely the Post Office's fault – as a nationalised industry, they were limited by politically set budgets.

Then along came semi-conductors, digital technology and fibre-optic cable. At my workplace the telephone exchange was a Strowger installation about the size of a tennis court and it had an engineer. Later, the exchange was replaced by a cabinet about the size of a small bookcase, the space became an office, and engineer visits became an event. The new box also allowed more phones to be fitted on site. At the same time, a large PO manual exchange over the road was closed down and demolished. (My sister had a holiday job there answering directory enquiries, which used to be free.

My friends were based in a large office block containing a big Strowger exchange, workshops, test facilities, stores, shift working engineering teams, admin workers and a canteen. Also a sizeable car-park and a fleet of vans. Took about 5 years but they were all made redundant, usually after a spell of low-skill work stripping old gear out. A friend of a friend was sacked for helping himself to scrap Copper Bus-bars: he would have gone jail if they'd been able to prove he was responsible for all that went missing. Did it because he felt betrayed. A deeply shocking experience: teams of best mates half-way through their careers brutally finding they and their skills weren't wanted.

Similar problems caused when resources run dry. Being built on good coal and clay made Stoke on Trent an excellent location for making pottery. The industry was huge. When the local coal ran out and had to be railroaded in, the extra cost broke most of the firms, and a host of pottery jobs disappeared. Textiles, shipbuilding, mining, automotive, railways and many others lost jobs wholesale. The 1950s were full of industrial optimism, the sixties started to get difficult, and serious pain developed during the 1970's. Failure to modernise, decades of poor industrial relations, shortage of money, efficient foreign competition, not adapting to changing markets, greed, stupidity and misjudged political interference all came to a head.

Change is a thoroughly nasty business. Something is so wrong it must be fixed and someone usually gets hurt. Lands on the victims like a bombshell, blasting their life foundations. Often delayed beyond crisis point and then badly implemented.

I'm finding ageing to consist mostly of slow unwanted change. I'm gradually loosing touch and hair, can't take good health for granted, and find new things irritating if they need effort. Can't be bothered with half of it. Can't blame the world because I'm falling apart.

I think the best thing oldsters can do is get out of the way when the time comes. Our individual 'Best Before Dates' vary a lot, so keep going whilst still sharp. However, certainly unwise for many of my elder statesmen friends to fervently believe they know how to run the country when they can't be trusted to come back from the shops with what was on the list!

Dave

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Confucious said, 'Change is inevitable'. He did not say for the better!

Ordinated lives, do this , do that but do it my way co's it costs more.

My parents had a 0.5% mortgage in the middle 40's, in the 70's when I wanted one it was 16%. paid £600 a year and only £12 0ff the captal sum. I paid off in a lump sum. Then found out the BS was charging 100% more for the insurance on the house. Them £24, same ins. my pay £12.

In 1964 my first new car a SAAB 95 cost me £375. in 2015 my new car VW cost £27000, who is taken for a ride: and I cannot work on it!

[Anonymous]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 17/07/2022 14:53:22:

 

Similar problems caused when resources run dry. Being built on good coal and clay made Stoke on Trent an excellent location for making pottery. The industry was huge. When the local coal ran out and had to be railroaded in, the extra cost broke most of the firms, and a host of pottery jobs disappeared.

Don't know where you got that from, by 1960ish potteries had all but ceased using coal to fire kilns. There were still numerous coal mines still going within the North Staffs area then, the last didn't close until the early 90s. I started work at Minton and Royal Doulton in the late 60s all the other major brands and loads and loads of smaller factories still going strong. The decline started in the late 70s but I'd got out by then, cheap imports, outsourcing labour abroad and asset stripping put paid to most.. China clay came from Cornwall and has for 250 years or more, local clay for earthenware etc as good as ran out way before my time.

Edited By Bezzer on 17/07/2022 16:20:57

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

The only contented people I ever knew were the post WW2 adults

A job that paid the bills, the pub, a smoke, a whippet and an allotment, plus the social network of like minded neighbours

So I try to simplify my life as much as possible and forget about the vast range of options modern society offers because the underlying message our modern world always pushes is "Want more!"

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Dave/SOD,

I was a BT technician, later engineer, during those years so I was well aware of what was going on. On the engineering side, redundancy didn't really start to hit until digital, System X & AXE10, started making real inroads into exchanges. Then it became pretty dramatic with technicians having to learn new skills and travel to different, larger locations where the control centres for the exchanges were situated. Or take early retirement. Just for information, in the '60's, GPO telephone employment was in the region of 240K with around 20K being employed on exchange duties. By 1994 when I left on early retirement, employment was down to 105k.

Prior to that, it was the conversion of manual exchanges to automatic, and the introduction of STD & ISD that caused redundancies in the female operating staff.

As you correctly said, a lot of the earlier problems were caused by the Treasury deciding how much money the GPO could spend so a lot of choices had to be made as to where spending money had the most beneficial effect. Indeed, during the big snow of 1962/63, I, as a linesman, was specifically instructed to report overhead routes as being storm damaged purely so that we could claim the repairs on a different budget.

Another problem was the quality of the workforce. Coming from a low wage area in the North of England, a telephone technician working in an exchange was on quite a good salary, but in London, where salaries were much higher, even with the London weighting allowance, exchange technicians were poorly paid. Any London based technician who was any good could, and plenty did, leave the GPO/BT to work elsewhere and receive an immediate pay boost. Thus, the remaining technicians were of the lower ability, people who either couldn't get a job elsewhere or were too lazy to try. I knew of one northern technician who went to London on a temporary basis and made a lot of money: apparently they were so desparate for good quality staff that my colleague could virtually write his own terms of reference – as much overtime as he could handle, free board & lodging plus free travel back home every now and then. I also overheard a conversation between a student and a demonstrator at the Stone Training Centre to the effect that the demonstrators only had to look at the headquarters of the students to be able to determine their calibre: north good, south poor. Of course, I'm only generalising, we in the North had our share of deadbeats, but in general, there were a lot of very good technicians in the North.

Today, I can't see there being very many exchange technicians. And with the proposed transfer of calls onto the internet with the consequent closure of local telephone exchanges, then there will be even fewer exchange technicians.

I have to say that on a personal basis, I find myself in a peculiar position. I can see that the world will move on, yet at the same time, it hurts that all that training I undertook is now obsolete.

Peter G. Shaw

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

The one socialist bit they did hang onto was the NHS

That one being deconstructed would affect the middle classes more than the lower order oiks, so it stayed

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 17/07/2022 14:53:22:

Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 17/07/2022 11:48:47:

There are two other threads running, one about buying unknown tooling (MAX-T) and the other about Brand Names. It seems to me that possibly the one thing that is missing from these threads is the consideration of time, money, and age.

…

That's right, but plenty of other factors in play as well. One is the march of technology. Large numbers of jobs and ways of doing things have disappeared.

…

However, certainly unwise for many of my elder statesmen friends to fervently believe they know how to run the country when they can't be trusted to come back from the shops with what was on the list!

Dave

That's a pretty good encapsulation of our country's industrial decline, along with Peter Shaw's contributions. It's similar to my own experience, from a different angle.

Of course the whole process is multi-layered, with numerous proposed 'cures' for the malady actually assisting its progress in some areas whilst delaying it in others.

After several years' shopfloor experience in companies making stuff from mining engineering equipment to geological exploration instruments, and tool design in a GPO teleprinter manufacturer, I found myself in the early 80s diverted into the implementation of manufacturing computer systems – in the event, for 35 years…

As an implementation consultant saw about 3 generations of MRP/MRPII/ERP software. All were imperfect, and each one either misunderstood or ignored the body of knowledge built up by the hard work of the previous one. Terminology which had been understood as 'reserved' in definition would suddenly change meaning. Features laboriously specified, tested and implemented would disappear in the latest 'game changing' package without any equivalent being offered.

New packages, sometimes successfully sold to thousands of companies, showed jawdropping naiveties in some functions. These were improved over time, but not before legions of software distributors had put their own programmers into developing a kaleidoscopic and frequently overlapping variety of addons to fill the functional gaps. Coping with the continuous steep learning curves these produced, along with the 'enhanced' releases of the core software, made me glad to accept retirement at what I'd been brought up to expect as the 'usual' age.

Education, too – my missus was a primary teacher – is littered with half-implemented and controversial innovations that have exhausted the experienced staff trying to deal with them.

I'm amazed that our 2 sons' generation are optimistically ploughing into their working lives. In that sense, I'm pleased that my own experience, and the almost immediate obsolescence of my own IT knowledge, doesn't appear to have affected them in the slightest!

Edited By Mick B1 on 18/07/2022 11:44:23

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by Ady1 on 18/07/2022 08:54:18:

The one socialist bit they did hang onto was the NHS

That one being deconstructed would affect the middle classes more than the lower order oiks, so it stayed

 

I think you might find that all three of the main political parties have been involved in regulations which in essence assist with privatising areas of the NHS (deconstructing?).

This has been in progress for several decades and I suggest you begin by looking up the “Any willing provider scheme” although it might be easier to find the “Any competent provider scheme” as it was called by the following government.

I find it very interesting to see which party / person originated the scheme, the whole thing is well worth investigating further.

You could start here with Wikipedia:-

Providers scheme

Our excellent area Audiology facilities were privatised from within 3 years ago and many users of these facilities received letters telling them to register with sub contractors.

 

Edited By V8Eng on 18/07/2022 11:30:17

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 17/07/2022 19:55:52:

I have to say that on a personal basis, I find myself in a peculiar position. I can see that the world will move on, yet at the same time, it hurts that all that training I undertook is now obsolete.

Peter – you are not alone, and it's getting quicker. This is a quote from Lee Hutchinson writing in arstechnica (in 2014 bemoaning the passing of the Hayes modems).

"You've almost certainly never seen the place where I grew up, and you never will because it's long gone, buried by progress and made unreachable by technological erosion and the fine grind of time. What I did and learned there shaped me, but that knowledge is archaic and useless. I am a wizard whose time has passed — a brilliant steam engine mechanic standing agape in the engine room of the starship Enterprise."

I spent my working life in the IT industry – and I relate exactly to his sentiments.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Peter Shaw mentions choice.

I see most of the "choice" illusory.

To take a simple example, he mentions the BBC Radio's three channels at the time. I remember them well, and what precipitated the development of the fourth, its pop and rock channel – along with changing the lovely old names to bland numbers.

Though I do not agree that The Third Programme / Radio Three was ever really "highbrow". We may have seen it as such when we were yoofs suffering from typical teenage inverted-snobbery about our musical tastes, but I doubt it was "highbrow" in reality, any more than it is now! It probably now plays a far wider range of music outside of those genres than any of the rest put together; but its golden touch is in being very friendly, welcoming and treating you as intelligent whether you are 9 or 99.

What has happened though is that some subsequent Government of whichever day decided to "open up the airwaves to competition" , "increase consumer choice" and such-like cliched rhubarb. This in broadcasting as much as in the utilities. The result now is a bland uniformity of formulaic day-time pop channels made in just a few small studios to please their advertising-agency masters, then sprinkled by the franchisees with some local news, weather and advertising to make them seem local.

Even the larger commercial stations seem no better, judging by the rather parsimonious radio listings in the only magazine that actually gives any worthwhile radio announcements at all, the Radio Times. Classic FM is a sort of stripped-down BBC R3 playing only the known and safe between the ads: no concerts, no commissioning, no new music, no helping musicians otherwise denied any but purely local exposure. Where is the choice?

.

Utilities: Yes, there might be some competition between the different companies but how many companies are there really, and where are they based? Is it really worth chopping and changing between them? I doubt it and I don't want the confusion and difficulty.

'

Entertainments (other than radio): I choose not to have a television; cannot be bothered with Netflix etc.; refuse point-blank to have a so-called "smart" -'speaker. I do not even know how to operate a modern television, which apparently demands considerable skill with a bewildering box of buttons.

So that is one area in which I avoid undue complexity in life. Give me something simple like a lathe change-wheel calculation, all the more rewarding because that's part of me creating something; not merely "consuming" short-term "content". Yes, the workshop radio's contents at the time might be a Sibelius symphony, The Rock Show (I still like fuzz-pedal-to-the-floor rock!) or You And Yours, but as well as …

'

Communications: I do not need a so-called "smart" -'phone and its library of so-called "apps". My portable telephone is just that, a telephone: voice telephony its primary function, text second but rather awkward; its alarm-clock useful, but its calculator too basic for change-wheel calculations. Most of my calls are by land-line (mainly evening and weekends).

More to the point I do not want a "smart" -'phone; and I resent the growing pressure from companies and officialdom to live my life by one. I did have one, about 4 years ago so quite recently. It was heavy, bulky, hard to use, came without instructions difficult to find on-line. I sold it a few months later and paid off the 2-year contract costing me more than its actual use.

As for Internet research.. tried it lately? Until very recently it was quite easy to find suitable information on almost anything not actually a specific web-site name. Google Maps was quick and simple. Not now. It's like looking for a needle in a swarf-bin.You are thrown into a morass of commercial links and advertisements provided on the slightest word-match to anything the system vaguely thinks related to the subject of your enquiry. The real information is there… but where?

.

Too much choice? No. An illusion of choice that makes life complicated, but there is often more choice in each range of the many ranges, in a supermarket.

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Nigel,

I always thought that the BBC adoption of "pop" music was caused by the likes of Radio Caroline broadcasting just outside the 3 mile limit which meant that it couldn't be touched by our broadcasting authorities. As a result, the BBC started playing "pop" music in direct competion, ie a case if you can't beat 'em, then join 'em.

Third Programme. I've actually never really listened to it so I can't really comment on it other than my perception and we all know how wrong that can be. Today, if I listen to anything, it is indeed ClassicFM.

I think the last BBC radio programmes I used to listen to regularly were John Dunn on Radio 2, '60's? '70's? And was it "The World at One" on Radio 4 during the '70's. That programme was a group listening exercise – six of us in a smallish room with opinions ranging from far right to far left. Had a few good arguments back then.

I agree about "smart" 'phones. I do have a very basic mobile 'phone. If I'm right, I believe it's a 3G version in which case shortly I'll be forced onto 4G or 5G along with whatever piece of electronic flummery has to be used. I do find it objectionable, this attitude that expects every one to have a moble 'phone of some description. The fiasco above with Ebay is just the latest. I have had a mixup with Patients Choice at the GP surgery expecting me to use a mobile 'phone. That resulted in me reverting to using their answering machine service every time a need a repeat prescription. Not my problem, if they can't provide something that works for everyone, then tough, they can provide a body to transcribe the answering messages. In fact, it takes less time for me to use the answering machine than to wade through all the levels of the internet so it's actually faster for me.

I do find Google maps still easy to use, but of late I have also been using Bing maps and Openstreetmap. What I don't like is the way Google, and Youtube, now ask you to agree to various things before they let you use their services. Of course, I simply deny everything. I also use something to do with Overlays, an addon for Firefox which disables any overlays it finds.

Tootle pip,

Peter G. Shaw

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 17/07/2022 19:55:52:

…I also overheard a conversation between a student and a demonstrator at the Stone Training Centre to the effect that the demonstrators only had to look at the headquarters of the students to be able to determine their calibre: north good, south poor. …

Shame! Now it's confirmed Stone thought southern students were poor stuff I want to tease my ex-GPO mates about it! They were unkind about my technical incompetence because my job didn't need a screwdriver and it still rankles. Unfortunately I've lost touch with all of them. Revenge would have been so, so sweet!

Dave

[Author]

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