this is the worst site possible

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

testing testing…123

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

‘Is this the worst side possible’ who knows it’s defiantly link a drunken person 1 step forward 3 steps backwards ! Yesterday found my self logged out had problems logging back in but eventually managed only to find any post/replies were greeted with

  🙁

But today all the problems have just gone away

H

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes the log in problem seems to be back, several on Model Boats with it and I could not log in as it should be this morning.

[dhendleyKeymaster @dhendley]

Morning all. Sorry, I know this is a nightmare. Looking into it now and I’ve called a meeting for tomorrow when Andy is back. One way or another we will fix this.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Strong black Coffee and good DoughNuts usually help on these occasions, Darren.

MichaelG.

[Darren Hendley 1]

On Darren Hendley 1 Said:

Morning all. Sorry, I know this is a nightmare. Looking into it now and I’ve called a meeting for tomorrow when Andy is back. One way or another we will fix this.

Darren

We thanks for letting us know that something is going to be done, however I would be grateful if you could clarify what you mean by ‘this’.

You used it in two places. as in ‘this is a nightmare’. Is that a nightmare to you, or were you referring to what the forum users experience?

‘We will fix this’ could refer to just one broken item , or did you mean the whole forum problems?

Yes, I’m being a bit pedantic but I am another long time user of this ME/MEW forum who is coming to the conclusion that life is just too short to wait around as the number of active and new users dwindle away.

I would like to make one suggestion please,

It would be a good idea if one of your team regularly posted an update (maybe in a sticky) that kept us up to date on progress as and when an item had been fixed.

Ian P

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Not sure about all the problems listed by users, I have been logged on for at least two weeks on two devices without any issues but only use the forum in its most basic form. I am using a Macbook and an old iPad. Only issue I had was when posting with images and text but Jason put me right about that.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Working OK for me. So many of the issues don’t seem to be consistent across users.

Also faster today.

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Oddly I felt it was running a bit slower over the weekend, when I say slower that is slower than it has been which is still down on other similar forums.

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

I’m inclined to go with Ian P we have a number of issue’s across the forum and it would be good if we knew to which issue’s Darren is referring to. There’s a lot of frustration with the forum at the moment, yes Darren and his team are working on the problems along with the forum Mod’s  however if members knew what issues Darren is working on and when possible in what order.

H

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Usually in a software project there would be a bug register to record what bugs have been found, when, what’s being done, an estimated fix date and current status.  I’m sure that this is no exception, any chance you could just give users sight of this?  Then if any have been missed people can say, and we all get the same information on what’s happening.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

harry, Darren was referring to the ongoing Log In problem.

Yes there is a Log and probbly not for your eyes.

[WearyParticipant @weary]

Hi Jason,

To support your impression as to the site running slower I can confirm that, for me at least, the site loading and pages loading has slowed a little in recent days.  It remains tolerable, but definitely slower.

Regards (& thanks for all your, and the other moderators and other unpaid interested parties, efforts)

Phil

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

harry, Darren was referring to the ongoing Log In problem.

Yes there is a Log and probbly not for your eyes.

Jason sorry can’t resist ‘why is the log that bad or that long ?’

H

[JasonB]

Darren posted this earlier today

Morning all. Sorry, I know this is a nightmare. Looking into it now and I’ve called a meeting for tomorrow when Andy is back. One way or another we will fix this.

I then asked Darren (in post #707203) what ‘this’ referred to. The impression I got from his post was that it was the whole site that was nightmare. Until Darren responds (I’m not holding my breath) we wont know what he actually meant.

On JasonB Said:

harry, Darren was referring to the ongoing Log In problem.

Yes there is a Log and probbly not for your eyes.

Now Jason has told us that Darren was referring to the login problem.

I can understand Darren, Andy and whoever else not wanting to share the problem log and to be honest I dont blame them, all I requested was for them to at least update the members as and when each problem has been dealt with.

Ian P

 

P.S. I confess to NOT having a vested interest in the login problem. With both the new and old forums I have had virtually no login problems. Old site was erratic originally and I never used a second device because that always logged me out, the new site has logged me out once but I can post from PC or Android and test logins and logouts just work.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

For me it just works. We as user who don’t pay anything don’t have a right to see any logs, and I think we should lay off a bit. If I were Mortons I’d be close to saying “well s*d you then” and switching it off. Hopefully this won’t happen, as I would miss it.

[Anonymous]

+1

[Harry Wilkes]

On Harry Wilkes Said:

On JasonB Said:

harry, Darren was referring to the ongoing Log In problem.

Yes there is a Log and probbly not for your eyes.

Jason sorry can’t resist ‘why is the log that bad or that long ?’

H

The log in problem was first reported around the beginning of December and only affects some members, some of the time. Both Myself and Dave have suffered with it and Even Andy last week was able to replicate the problem. Model Boats is also affected.

One of the fundamental needs of a forum is for people to be able to take part, if they can’t log in then that is a priority issue and not as important as a bit of layout or some other minor function. It is affecting what I would term “valued” members who are respected by the others, can give good advice and who also contribute to the mag and it would be a shame to loose them not only for the forum but as they provide good content and articles.

We also don’t know how many have just not bothered to ask or answer if they could not log in and simply gone away without letting anyone know of their problems. Could be one of the reasons the activity seems to be down. We had it over Xmas where people were asking on other forums if this site had closed as they could not log in and just saw “latest replies” stoped a few days earlier.

IanP mentions letting members know when each problem has been dealt with, I’ve several emails saying the log in problem “should be sorted now” but here we are with it cropping up again so I think that would make Mortons look worse if they kept posting that things had been fixed only for them to break again a few days later

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I haven’t had any login problems since the 31st Dec. when I removed the “Don’t clear” from the “Choose what to clear” list, in the privacy and cookies site/permissions, in my browser, when it is closed, even when others were still having login problems.

Regards Nick.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

My comment about Coffee and DoughNuts was more serious than might have first appeared …

Perk-up the attention levels, and the energy levels, and the ‘team spirit’

… focus on what will be a Big Win not an easy one

It is all-too easy to keep tinkering around the edges, and leave the hard stuff ‘til later, but that gets you nowhere.

Darren has the right Battle-Cry:

One way or another we will fix this.

MichaelG.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

On Harry Wilkes Said:

On JasonB Said:

…

Jason sorry can’t resist ‘why is the log that bad or that long ?’

H

The log in problem was first reported around the beginning of December and only affects some members, some of the time. Both Myself and Dave have suffered with it and Even Andy last week was able to replicate the problem. …

IanP mentions letting members know when each problem has been dealt with, I’ve several emails saying the log in problem “should be sorted now” but here we are with it cropping up again so I think that would make Mortons look worse if they kept posting that things had been fixed only for them to break again a few days later

The login problem is one of several bugs that appear and disappear, or affect some but not others, or cause other temporary misbehaviours.   Recently, I couldn’t login at all whilst Jason had no trouble.  Now, as far I as can tell, login is 100% reliable !  Based on what I see, this bug is fixed, therefore the error must be at Jason’s end.  Actually, I trust Jason – something is still wrong!

Unreliable behaviour is characteristic of an overloaded computer.  The application, in this case WordPress with plugins, may not be the root cause at all.   The issue is deeper inside the system.  Behind the scenes, the system shares memory, IO, CPU time and other resources between many processes and users.   Done with interrupts and various types of queue. The system protects itself from overload by applying quotas, so if an application does not clear a queue of user requests fast enough, the system doesn’t fail: instead the application crashes, or drops user requests in mid-flight.  It’s akin to popping a circuit breaker that resets automatically until the next overload.   The bugs are the consequence of bottlenecking rather than bad logic.  There is a lot of queuing going on: WordPress, the database, and many plug-ins are all multii-threading, and if a thread breaks the user has a problem.

Whether or not the application misbehaves doesn’t depend on one user, it depends on combinations of activity.  System fail possibilities due to timeouts and failed transactions include:

• Poorly written plug-in(s)
• Misconfigured WordPress
• Poor choice of database manager
• Misconfigured Database Manager causing time-outs
• Bad data structure
• Missing or inappropriate indexes
• Database and/or Application exceeding one or more Operating System quotas
• Host has insufficient memory, or disc system too full
• If Host is a Virtual Server, then other customers or maintenance may be overloading it,
• Network connection too small or too slow, or traffic exceeds quota setting

Bugs of this type can be extremely difficult to fix:  the developer may not be able to reproduce them, and, in the absence of smoke, is forced to wade through the logic and documentation looking for potential causes.   Having found a likely candidate, a change is made, which might appear to have worked, but the test result was misleading.  Overload problems have other nasty characteristics.   For example, if the network connection is bottlenecking, an expensive and possibly bad answer is to pay big money for more bandwidth.   A cheaper, easier and faster answer might be to reduce network traffic by cacheing. Skilled work –  misconfigured cacheing is hard to debug too.   Though hard to find, very often these problems are easy to fix once the actual cause is identified.

The ME Forum isn’t massive by web standards, but I think it’s big enough to require system tuning. If I’m right, then it’s a developer nightmare!  Application programmers are trained not to worry about efficiency because application code is rarely performance critical.  If an application doesn’t perform, much more likely the system needs tuning than the application.   However, WordPress straddles application and system considerations, and its probably running on a hosting service that can only be tuned by someone else. Painful!

The database is a plugin, allowing the developer to use anything between slow and simple up to super-fast and complicated.  This is good because it allows small sites to be hosted cheap without fuss, but monster sites can be accommodated with a high-end database and server-farm if needed. Low-end databases are easy provided they do the job, high-end are £hard.

WordPress by default doesn’t cache; instead the developer has to choose between many plugins, and some of the options may be mutually exclusive.  Again Low-end sites are easy, high-end are tricky and expensive.

Naturally users are annoyed by visible bugs, but these I think are all minor compared with what’s going on backstage.   Everything looks good on Friday night, she breaks over the weekend so Monday starts with a crisis, and the next phase of fixes is delayed again.

If system tuning is the problem I have considerable sympathy with the developer.

Dave

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Though we have no Developer, they went a couple of months ago.

It’s a random problem, Friday it was said to be fixed and worked OK for me Saturday, did not work Sunday but has been OK Monday and Tuesday.

The fact it has worked 75% of the time in the last 4 days suggests it is not something my end as surely that would affect it each time I switch on in the morning

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

…  The database is a plugin, allowing the developer to use anything between slow and simple up to super-fast and complicated.  This is good because it allows small sites to be hosted cheap without fuss, but monster sites can be accommodated with a high-end database and server-farm if needed. Low-end databases are easy provided they do the job, high-end are £hard…Dave

 

Not sure that is entirely right. WordPress requires a pre-existing database for installation. That can be either MySQL 5.7 or greater OR MariaDB 10.4 or greater. That’s it, both of these are open source systems. There is no direct control of the database from within WordPress it just uses what is provided. As far as I am aware the options for speeding up or adjusting the database system are not available. The database is not a ‘plugin’ it is a primary requisite of WordPress installation.

The database facilities are provided by the web-hosting company and needs to be created on their server before WordPress can be installed. During installation you tell WordPress the details to find the installed database. The WordPress installation routine then creates the necessary tables within the provided database.

It is neither complicated nor long-winded to install the database and subsequently WordPress. I also wonder if Model Boats is using the same database with different table names, as is quite possible, which may also contribute to the intermittent problems.

However I am still not convinced that WordPress is the right software to run a bulletin board, this is not what it was designed to do. It may be adequate to run the front end of the website with the relatively static headings and articles but not for the actual forum which should, I think, be on a different software as seems to work for RCM&E.

John

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Dave ‘  Now, as far I as can tell, login is 100% reliable ! ‘ I wonder if members read what others have posted before making such comment ! I reported on Sunday that on Saturday I found that I had been logged out and could not log in all day Sunday logged in OK but couldn’t post/comment got the 403 error hence my reference to the forum being like a drunken man.

H

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

 

The database is a plugin, allowing the developer to use anything between slow and simple up to super-fast and complicated.

To my mind this is putting the cart before the horse. the site should be designed around the database. i.e. the website is just a front end for the database, which is doing all of the work.
Being constantly logged in I have not had login issues. However I have noticed that it is a bit slower of late.

[Author]

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