The Raspberry Pi gets domesticated

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I received an email from Farnell about the RPi 400 a day or so ago and had a quick look at it then but the image supplied didn't really give a feel for the size of the device.

However, I've just watched a YouTube review that took me through the usual (rather tedious) unboxing and setting up. The guy is another 'retro-gamer' type and quickly went about loading and demoing 'Retro-Pi' which was pretty impressive. I must admit that I thought the whole product was very neat and very good value. I'm sure it will be very successful and widely used and supported.

But (there had to be one) I then thought about my RPi 3B+ (?) that is sitting in it's neat (purchased extra) case, with external HDMI to VGA connector, USB keyboard and Mouse (again all purchased separately) – which apart from a bit of processing power and the packaging is functionally pretty much the same as the 400. After I'd got it going and played around with it for a while, that was it really. I haven't yet found a compelling use for it.

I did load Micromite BASIC (MMB) on my RPi (making it a "Pi-Cromite" ) and it worked – but it wasn't "turn on and go". To access the I/O pins, another bit of s/w (PIG/IO?) had to also be loaded. It all worked but it had too much "overhead" and I had simpler/better solutions available for my needs (including my Win 10 laptop). To finally put a cap on my "Pi-Cromite" adventures, Matthew (a very clever chap from UK) has given up on the RPi as a MMB platform. Every time the O/S changed (e.g. quite frequently it seemed) he was having to undertake serious work to update the MMB port. He decided it wasn't worth the effort, given the stable 'hard-metal' platforms already available (e.g. there is no O/S in-between).

This is the reason I've resisted buying a Colour Maximite II (at least so far). It might suit me much better than the 400 but I don't actually have a need for one. If some of the signal generator, scope and analyser tools (programmes) starting to appear for the CMM2 are further developed, then this might well change of course.

Anyway – the RPi looks really neat and will certainly appeal to many, so I'm sure we will be seeing a lot more of it.

Regards,

IanT

Edited By IanT on 03/11/2020 09:54:50

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Bazyle on 03/11/2020 00:09:44:

At a tangent perhaps. The BBC website report on this storey mostly goes on about the school use aspect and how lots of companies will have old monitors ……..

(in case you haven't used a Pi the screen output is to HDMI so old monitors or TVs don't work without another interface. One of the great things about the old ZX80 and friends of that era is they worked with the old black and white protable you had in the spare room for granny)

Not really a problem. HDMI has been around for nearly 20 years, and a monitor or TV without HDMI is antique by teenager standards Today, most people most of the time want HDMI. And HDMI to Video converters only cost about £5 if you need one.

Dave

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

The DVI interface seemed to be common at one point before HDMI appeared on monitors, cables for this are not dear but audio will need a workaround.

Mike

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by IanT on 03/11/2020 09:53:50:…

Pi3B – After I'd got it going and played around with it for a while, that was it really. I haven't yet found a compelling use for it…

In this and other posts Ian explains why BASIC on a PIC32 Platform are a good match to his requirements, which I summarise as:

• BASIC is compatible with Ian's previous learning (a very good reason for using it!)
• Small projects, none of which are performance critical.
• Cheap hardware
• Simple programming environment

All excellent reasons for Ian selecting Micromite, but this technology has a glass ceiling. BASIC fails to deliver above a certain project size, complexity or performance. The language trades-off utility and power in favour of being a "Beginners' All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code". BASIC is avoided by professionals partly because a language running out of puff midway through a big project is a disaster.

C is harder to learn and apply than BASIC but doesn't have any of it's limitations. Very little in the way of programming can't be done by C and the resulting executables are about as compact and fast as is possible on any computer. The disadvantage is more human effort is needed to create them.

The RaspberryPi family are interesting and useful because they can operate in two worlds. Operating Systems like Windows, UNIX, Mac etc are carefully designed to safely share resources between many different tasks and users requiring a great deal of compute power in bursts. Safety is assured by enforcing a strong barrier between user code and the system; the system is responsible for managing critical functions, and it controls and rations what user programs can do, in particular they are not allowed direct access to the hardware, or to hog resources. Contrasts sharply with embedded computing, where there's only one user, who is allowed full access to all the hardware and can change anything, and although only a smidge of compute power is needed, 100% control of it is essential. The computing solution needed to satisfy spreadsheet users is very different to that needed to run a CNC machine. Pi is unusual in having a general-purpose operating system that does allow user access to hardware pins and there are a range of problems where this is extremely useful.

Arduino successfully provided simplified C programming of a class of AVR boards with built-in conveniences. Not needing a separate boot loader made them easier to program than PIC, and rapidly collected a library of software solutions and compatible hardware modules. Professionals aren't overly impressed by Arduino-IDE because the simplifications get in the way of advanced work while Arduino Boards are unlikely to used in a mass-produced product. Professionals find it more effective to bite the bullet and deploy a conventional developer tool-set, not least because these support teams of programmers working on the same project. But Arduino goes a long way and it's great for single hobbyists.

Although BASIC was the preferred beginner language back in the day, now I recommend Python strongly to newcomers. It walks all over BASIC…

Horses for courses.

Dave

 

 

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 03/11/2020 11:50:51

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

You have reminded me that I did initially run my Pi into a modified SCART but all my computer monitors are VGA and I only just got a new work laptop with HDMI not VGA (so I can't use my separate screen now).
I find all these microcontrollers are awkward for I/O a an engineering level often being 3v not 5v so immediately needing a level shifter, delicate non TTL inputs, no RS232 which provided a simple universal and robust interface. Everything USB ends up with timing difficulties and driver problems too. I can plug my micromite into my W10 laptop fine and it finds a USB driver but the W8 PC won't talk to it with drivers suggested by the mfr.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bazyle on 03/11/2020 12:00:02:

You have reminded me that I did initially run my Pi into a modified SCART but all my computer monitors are VGA

.

Did you read the links that I posted this morning ?

MichaelG.

[An OtherParticipant @another21905]

More Info:

**LINK**

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Bazyle –

Sorry but have to disagree regarding RS232 – it was never universal and has not been present on most computers for more than 20 years. On the BBC Micro 1981 vintage it was rejected in favour of RS 423 with different voltage levels.

The pinouts and control signals provided on most implementations were usually only a subset of the RS232 standard, there were multiple different connectors and connecting two devices together could be a nightmare.

Upstairs somewhere there is a hard backed book about 3/4" thick with pinouts and connections for just the most common RS232 connections.

I'm grateful it has gone I'm afraid!

Nick

PS My Raspberry Pi 400 arrived this morning and I am using it to type this. A good replacement for a basic laptop. No appreciable delays at anything I have tried so far including video streaming over WiFi.

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 03/11/2020 08:19:48:

For info. [there being no need to follow any of the advertorial links] : **LINK**

Reviews of the Best HDMI to VGA Converter (Adapter)

MichaelG.

.

See also:

**LINK**

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 03/11/2020 08:23:08

But the downside of these is that Pi4 and Pi400 uses the micro HDMI and so you are into convertors for socket size as well.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I do agree with most of Dave's (SoD) post.

I have to assume that Dave is either an IT professional or has devoted a fair bit of time to learn these particular skills. The "Glass Ceiling" comment is worth exploring though.

Disclaimer. I am not (and never will be) an "IT Pro". Nor am I ever going to develop any 'large' IT applications.

I'm not completely IT illiterate though. I 'm the Webmaster for my Society, using a commercial website application to run it. It's all very drag and drop stuff (and it still took me a while to get to gips with it ) Likewise I use a whole range of fairly complex PC & Mobile applications – Word Processors, Spreadsheets, CAD, Image Editors – these are all wheels that I don't need to re-invent. I am never (ever) going to develop anything even approaching their complexity, so why spend time (that frankly I don't have) to learn the required skills to do so?

So whilst I pretty much agree with Dave – I draw a rather different set of conclusions.

I'm assuming that many people on this site are somewhat similar to me in both their technical ambitions and existing technical skills. If this was a forum for Computer Science graduates, then that assumption would of course be seriously flawed. There are clearly folk here who do have deep skills in these areas but I wonder if they are in the majority? Maybe not.

I know very little about Python, although I do know it has become very popular in recent years. So I cannot make any comparisons but then I wonder if Dave has spent much time looking closely at MM BASIC (MMB) either.

It is a well structured modern language that is closely tied to the advanced hardware it is running on. It has been written by people who very clearly know exactly what they are doing and who don't have many of the restrictions that people developing for 8-bit platforms had some 40 years ago. MM Basic is very powerful, well documented and friendly in use.

I believe that for many here, who might just need a simple 'compute' solution to a very specific problem (be that an embedded or stand-alone programme) a solution that is both simple and quick to implement has an inherent advantage that trumps most other technical considerations. MMB (in it's various guises) seems to fill that role for me. So whilst I agree with the technical points made so well by Dave – I disagree somewhat with his conclusions.

OK, that's enough from me – I'll shut up now!

Regards,

IanT

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I have no problem with this thread running in whatever direction it may [that’s what they do], but I am honestly surprised that the subject of ‘domestication’ of the Pi was so rapidly abandoned, and the discussion turned to concerns about using it with surplus/obsolete TVs and Monitors … generally considered non-domestic ‘hobby room’ activity, I would have thought.

MichaelG.

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

My problem with BASIC is that no two versions are the same and a change of hardware can mean a change of dialect. Having got my head round C 30 odd years ago I do like it's succinctness – but most jobs that are normally handled by the language – for example memory handling you have to do yourself.

BBC basic is different to Quick BASIC and Borland produced their own and there were several different versions from Microsoft. PIC BASIC is different to MMBASIC and so on ad infinitum.

Teaching nowadays Python is definitely the way to go except for visually impaired or blind learners where speech programs cannot cope with the default IDE and the education world is frightened go death about giving students the access necessary to use another!

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 03/11/2020 18:51:50

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

My first introduction to programming was with Fortran. This was back in the days when the computer had it's own building, programs were on punched cards and invariably returned a piece of A3 tractor paper with 'error' written in the top left corner. That is unless the computer was having a bad day, when you got nothing at all until it stopped sulking. I decided to stick to slide rules.

Then I went to work in aerospace and had access to telcomp, a time sharing system which you actually rang up, then when it answered you put the handset in a special cradle and got on to the teleprinter using Basic (no monitor). In theory you could store a program on punched tape, but I never managed to achieve that. Despite these limitations it was a lot better than slide rule for some tasks.

I then moved on to a Beeb, using BBC basic (self taught). Transformation! Clever science people looked down on Basic, so I got a book about Pascal. It kept saying 'you can't do such and such in Basic', well you could in BBC Basic.

Eventually the extremely slow speed of the Beeb persuaded me to buy a Unix based machine (can't remember the name, began with a A, not Amstrad), but that spoke QBasic, so all my stuff had to be re-written.

Eventually I went for a PC, and taught myself C as it is supposedly portable, no more re-writing to suit the new OS.

Recently however SOD pointed me at Python, it is definitely easier than C, and so far is portable between Windows machines and Linux. I still have to speak C for the Arduino, but I don't tend to try anything clever on Arduino. There is so much stuff pre-written for Python a lot of my programs are almost cut and paste. It was even fairly straightforward to port C programs into Python by cut and paste text. I believe you can by using some mantra put chunks of C into Python, but that's outside my paygrade.

After all this rigmarole, if you're wanting to get into programming (not PICs or Arduinos) go for Python

Edited By duncan webster on 04/11/2020 01:19:37

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by duncan webster on 04/11/2020 01:18:03:

My first introduction to programming was with Fortran. This was back in the days when the computer had it's own building, programs were on punched cards and invariably returned a piece of A3 tractor paper with 'error' written in the top left corner.

You were lucky! – As a lowly under graduate at Nottingham University at the start of the seventies I dropped off my stack of Fortran cards to be processed overnight and if something went wrong I got back the cards next morning together with a whole sheaf of wide tractor paper with 0.0000000 repeated in columns across the page and continuously down for 30 pages or so until an automatic cut off rejected the job. I also got a nasty note from the operator threatening to report me to the professor if I did not stop wasting their time and valuable resources!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Nick Clarke 3 on 04/11/2020 09:13:17:

Posted by duncan webster on 04/11/2020 01:18:03:

My first introduction to programming was with Fortran. This was back in the days when the computer had it's own building, programs were on punched cards and invariably returned a piece of A3 tractor paper with 'error' written in the top left corner.

You were lucky! – As a lowly under graduate at Nottingham University at the start of the seventies I dropped off my stack of Fortran cards to be processed overnight and if something went wrong I got back the cards next morning together with a whole sheaf of wide tractor paper with 0.0000000 repeated in columns across the page and continuously down for 30 pages or so until an automatic cut off rejected the job. I also got a nasty note from the operator threatening to report me to the professor if I did not stop wasting their time and valuable resources!

Me too.

As new boy I was asked to tabulate one per page, a comprehensive stock summary of an entire inventory.

As this was an 80,000+ page report, I told the operators to expect a huge print and overrode the system limits. In the morning a giant stack of boxes were waiting for me. The horror! Detail correct on each page but no titles, thus missing the all important stock number. Useless.

Fixed that and re-ran. Following morning another enormous stack of paper, this time with titles present and correct, but no detail. I'd produced 160,000 sheets of roughly A3 sized scrap paper,

The boss was strangely silent : turned out he'd made much the same mistake before I joined and hadn't got over the humiliation, whereas my cock-up could be swept under the carpet as a trainee mistake. Got it right the third time.

Actually wasting paper wasn't the worst sin. Far more serious was producing reports that looked OK but were wrong. Rarely turns out well when people act on duff information.

Dave

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Dave……………"Rarely turns out well when people act on duff information"……..are we still on the topic of computers? or has the thread accidently moved to erm,….. a more topical subject !!!

I once had an Oric 1, typed in reams of Basic commands from magazines then spent the rest of the day debugging it, until my Mum pulls out the mains lead and all was lost……

Not sure I have enough time in the day to play about with Raspberry's or Ardunio's now but it does look a fun thing to play with when the workshop is too cold….

Regards to all

Derek

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