The Mitutoyo caliper for sale ad.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Does the seller of the Mitutoyo caliper listed two days ago realise that his caliper will almost certainly read in both metric and imperial?

If it doesn't, can anyone tell me which current model of Mitutoyo digital caliper that looks like the one being sold does not read in imperial as well as metric?

EtA: I see I'm out of touch with the current spec. of Mitutoyo digital calipers; it appears that there are now quite a few models that only read in metric. Why would Mitutoyo do that? Won't that deter American buyers and quite a few old world buyers too? I do mostly use metric, but I'd still want my caliper to be able to read in imperial as well.

Edited By Bill Phinn on 26/10/2022 18:45:09

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

The one in the pic does not. Check their catalogue and you'll find it's not at all unusual.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 26/10/2022 18:35:46:

EtA: I see I'm out of touch with the current spec. of Mitutoyo digital calipers; it appears that there are now quite a few models that only read in metric. Why would Mitutoyo do that? Won't that deter American buyers and quite a few old world buyers too? I do mostly use metric, but I'd still want my caliper to be able to read in imperial as well.

Pretty easy I would think to make the dual-reading version read only metric or imperial and hide the button. Or have two versions of the cover – at the volumes they produce it's probably no extra cost. There are probably locations/industries that use only metric and find the button more of a nuisance than anything. Ditto in reverse for the US.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

In a factory or workshop that only uses metric, dual instruments are a source of error. As the vast majority of world design and manufacturing is metric there are plenty of customers for whom Imperial measure is a risk.

Imperial measure is slowly fading. I wonder how long it will last? My children don't know what a florin is perhaps because you have to over 50 of age to have spent one.

My MP is the eccentric minister who dated his resignation "Saint Crispin's Day', a form of calendar few of us are familiar with! If anyone wishes to be a traditionalist today is Saint Alfred the Great's Day.

Dave

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm astonished that industry can realistically regard having a discreetly located and recessed imperial/metric toggle button at the top of the display as a source of error.

Does industry typically entrust a Mitutoyo digital caliper to people taking critical measurements who are so bovine, hung over or distracted that they can't tell whether their caliper is set to metric or imperial?

If these people can't be trusted to know what setting their caliper is on when the two settings are so clearly differentiated by the appearance of the readings, and changing from one to another needs such a deliberate press of a recessed button, how can they be trusted to distinguish between hundreds or thousands of settings on multi-axis digital readouts and in CNC software?

[peak4Participant @peak4]

I quite like the idea of the Wixey one which displays fractions too; then again I'm an old stick in the mud.
https://www.machine-dro.co.uk/wixey-wr100-fraction-digital-caliper-0-150mm-0-6

Bill

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

Posted by peak4 on 26/10/2022 20:16:03:

I quite like the idea of the Wixey one which displays fractions too; then again I'm an old stick in the mud.
https://www.machine-dro.co.uk/wixey-wr100-fraction-digital-caliper-0-150mm-0-6

Bill

Depends how they implement it. I once saw a fraction-displaying device that would return daft fractions like 37/41

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

The reasoning behind the metric only versions is logical and would prevent missreadings, as SOD says,(not so silly). The only thing that I don't like about my new Dsaqua calipers id the third option of fractions, 1/128" is not so good when you realise it jumps 0.2mm or 0.008" between readings.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by old mart on 26/10/2022 21:36:07:

The reasoning behind the metric only versions is logical and would prevent missreadings, as SOD says,(not so silly).

The second, third and fourth paragraphs of my second post were intended to explain my reasoning. If you can address the remarks I raise there and point out why they're not valid, I'll be more inclined to regard the banishment of the toggle button as necessary or useful. We're not talking about metric/imperial steel rules here where the unwanted markings that are always on show may justifiably be considered a permanent distraction or source of error.

Edited By Bill Phinn on 26/10/2022 21:51:04

[Anonymous]

There are a couple of other effects of removing the button too:

– one less area to coolant-proof.

– there is a minor (but always worth having) improvement in overall reliability numbers.

That said, most of the pictures on the Mitutoyo site seem to have the mm/in button shown (on the front).

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by old mart on 26/10/2022 21:36:07:

The reasoning behind the metric only versions is logical and would prevent missreadings, as SOD says,(not so silly). The only thing that I don't like about my new Dsaqua calipers id the third option of fractions, 1/128" is not so good when you realise it jumps 0.2mm or 0.008" between readings.

I’ve still got a Texas instrument calculator that can manipulate with fractions – a TI-44 i think. I did use it like that a couple of times – just to know how to do it – but never really needed that facility. It was easier to convert to decimal and save the values in its memories. It was reverse polish notation, as well, for those as old as I, – who can remember such calculators.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Cost-saving. Cost-saving. Cost-saving. Tis the way of the manufacturing world. Saving a few pence per item by not fitting an imperial chip or program plus the physcial switch on each of thousands of manufactured items adds up to many dollars or pounds (or yen) saved over a year of manufacturing.

With the decline of manufacturing in the USA, demand for professional quality imperial calipers must have dropped off dramatically over the past 20 years. With all the rest of the world (except a few of us diehard old Myford duffers etc — a dying race) using metric there is no need for the added cost of imperial capacity in most cases. Why would they spend money to make something not needed or wanted? They probably do one special short production run of the imperial/metric models per year and leave it at that.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Yes, like Hopper I'm inclined to think it's more to do with cost saving than avoidance of error.

Mitutoyo has the added bonus of giving people what it must realise quite a number of them want anyway; I'd imagine most European users would bemoan the absence of imperial units on their digital caliper about as much as they'd bemoan not having miles per hour on their car speedometers – which is probably about as much as if what was missing was parasangs per hour.

Brits' use for kmh is arguably greater. And having a speedometer that can read in both mph and kmh is still a legal requirement in the UK, I think.

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Dave

I didn't know that Texas Instruments had made calculators using reverse polish notation. I have a couple of old HP calculators that use this, a HP 41C with a memory module and an HP 41CV with a card reader attachment. I can still remember an HP rep turning up at the office with one of their ealy basic calculators, LED display, quoting a price of something like £500. That was back in the early 70s, as they say 'Nostalgia is a thing of the past.

Martin

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I expect the Quality assurance documents of quite a few commercial companies don't cover the use of imperial and it would just be one more thing to pay out and have callibrated and certified when it's not needed.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Absolutely a cost saving exercise! And BTW I have just noticed Amazon sell digital 'vernier' calipers, say no more

Tony

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 26/10/2022 20:03:16:

…

I'm astonished that industry can realistically regard having a discreetly located and recessed imperial/metric toggle button at the top of the display as a source of error.

Does industry typically entrust a Mitutoyo digital caliper to people taking critical measurements who are so bovine, hung over or distracted that they can't tell whether their caliper is set to metric or imperial?

…

Most of the world has no interest or foreknowledge of Imperial Measure! If it's used it has to be specially taught. As it's not easy to learn, most of the world has walked away.

As a system Imperial is poor because it's internally inconsistent and littered with strange conversions. Metric, also imperfect, is better because it's internally consistent and most of the strange conversions have been eliminated by only working in factors of 10.

The worst possible situation is running metric and imperial side by side – it's a recipe for mistakes and misunderstandings. Plenty of examples of folk messing up in countries familiar with both metric and Imperial/English measure.

If Imperial isn't necessary in a workplace having to fiddle with buttons and scales slows everything down and opens the door to mistakes. Metric only gear exists because many people – the majority – have no need for imperial. To them Imperial measure is a risky anachronism, best avoided.

Dave

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Oh NO the Imperial vs Metric argument has reared it's head again. I'm out of here.

Tony

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

One $327M risk.

Mars Climate Orbiter – Wikipedia

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 27/10/2022 09:58:20:

.

Most of the world has no interest or foreknowledge of Imperial Measure! If it's used it has to be specially taught. As it's not easy to learn, most of the world has walked away.

.

… by putting one foot before the other

MichaelG.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 26/10/2022 19:45:02:

My MP is the eccentric minister who dated his resignation "Saint Crispin's Day', a form of calendar few of us are familiar with! If anyone wishes to be a traditionalist today is Saint Alfred the Great's Day.

Dave

St Crispin is the patron saint of cobblers. Explains a lot.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

He was a Shakespeare fan (Henry V act 4)

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

Gentlemen I'm not sure America is still the strong bastion of 'imperialism' we tend to think it is. I have just finished a 5-year stint with GE in the Carolinas involved in heavy mechanical engineering. During tens of thousands of internal technical discussions, plus meetings with their local suppliers, not once did I hear or see an imperial unit.

There was one occasion where I enquired as to the origins of a quantity mentioned in a spec and was told by one of the 'old boys' that it was a conversion from the 'mill'. Most of the younger Americans weren't even aware of this old unit, never mind its value.

Gerry

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by gerry madden on 27/10/2022 11:38:01:

Gentlemen I'm not sure America is still the strong bastion of 'imperialism' we tend to think it is. I have just finished a 5-year stint with GE in the Carolinas involved in heavy mechanical engineering. During tens of thousands of internal technical discussions, plus meetings with their local suppliers, not once did I hear or see an imperial unit.

There was one occasion where I enquired as to the origins of a quantity mentioned in a spec and was told by one of the 'old boys' that it was a conversion from the 'mill'. Most of the younger Americans weren't even aware of this old unit, never mind its value.

Gerry

Well, The US of A did officially change to metric in 1975. But much of their industry and people still stick to what they term "customary measure", including their automotive industry, as the change was not compulsory. Sounds like GE, being a major player in global industries such as power generation and the like has gone with the global-oriented metric option. I believe most science in the US is conducted in metric these days but have no experience in that field.

When I worked in the US in the 1980s I came across the "mil" (single L) which is what older Yanks called one thousandth of an inch for reasons I have never determined. Could get confusing with millimeters these days.

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