The demise of UK fossil fuel Power Stations

[Bob McDougallParticipant @bobmcdougall63250]

Visit to Drax in around 2004, I sneaked up to one of the turbine shaft housings and kissed it. Those bearings were smoother than …. well Cold unmoving and very beautiful.

very efficient as pressure differential to current flow converters.

solid state would be nice.

i think most places have realised coal is finite but the solutions differ,

Swindon Honda factory, as a wind turbine manufacturer. (no affiliation )

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Bob McDougall on 20/01/2021 22:49:32:

Visit to Drax in around 2004, I sneaked up to one of the turbine shaft housings and kissed it. Those bearings were smoother than …. well Cold unmoving and very beautiful.

Now that's taking your power station porn very seriously!

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Did anyone else hear the recent Radio 4 program about how trees growing in northern lattittudes is actually worse for the environment and global wrming than the natural grass they displace?
A complex interaction of grass attracting animals that trample the snow preventing it from insulating the soil so allowing the cold to penetrate making deep permafrost so sustaining the snow in summer to reflect more light/heat which has to be balanced against the methane produced by those grazing animals. But still actally better than trees.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Bazyle on 21/01/2021 11:55:28:

Did anyone else hear the recent Radio 4 program about how trees growing in northern lattittudes is actually worse for the environment and global wrming than the natural grass they displace?
A complex interaction of grass attracting animals that trample the snow preventing it from insulating the soil so allowing the cold to penetrate making deep permafrost so sustaining the snow in summer to reflect more light/heat which has to be balanced against the methane produced by those grazing animals. But still actally better than trees.

Wow that's a delicate balance. Who would have thought? I guess some of those tree-huggers will have to become grass-grabbers.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Where does ‘northern latitudes’ start?

Certainly not (much) of England, while we have the gulf stream maintaining a maritime climate. Scrub might be more like it – unless it is humans, over-running the country, that are making the difference. Snow in summer would also reduce any grasses, thereby reducing the grazing animals.

Without human interference, there would also be much more equatorial forest – not so much grass there, I suppose?

Remember, too, that coal was once trees.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by not done it yet on 21/01/2021 12:45:32:

Where does ‘northern latitudes’ start?

…

.

immediately North of the Equator

But more realistically : immediately North of the Tropic of Cancer.

MichaelG.

.

Ref. https://www.thoughtco.com/equator-hemisphere-tropic-of-cancer-capricorn-1435089

Edit: __ and ‘High Northern Latitudes’ are apparently >50° N

Ref. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24890614/

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 21/01/2021 13:11:49

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

But it only refers to ‘northern’ latitudes?😼

Seems as though the programme was fairly much rubbish? Or it was referring to particular latitudes? There is a lot of grass on the savannahs – but not much permafrost in those regions? Is southernmost latitudes were included, there ain’t a lot of much anything down at the Antacric?

Claim’s without detail are about useless, as are suggestions that it is simply more than about 23 degrees north of the equator.

Edited By not done it yet on 21/01/2021 14:27:43

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by not done it yet on 21/01/2021 14:26:35:

[…]

useless, as are suggestions that it is simply more than about 23 degrees north of the equator.

.

You are really on form, aren’t you !

I answered your specific question accurately, then included two riders by way of trying to help.

MichaelG.

[10ba12baParticipant @10ba12ba]

6% of 42 gig demand today is being generated by coal burners. My mates at Ratcliffe and West Burton must be shovelling hard!

H.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Manufacturers of HVO (a form of bio diesel) claim it’s use provides a reduction in CO2 of around 90%. The claim is based on the CO2 absorbed by the feedstock during its growing phase provides the fuel with negative carbon offset when delivered to the tank for use. All very well but the emissions when burnt are little reduced on normal diesel when burnt in a standard engine providing no little benefit for the local environment.

Now coal we are told is formed from plant life, compressed and heated underground to form coal. What CO2 did the plants that formed the coal absorb during their life? How come coal does not attract the same credit? Bit of a differential in time to process but does HVO lose its credit the older it gets?

Paul.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

With the very real threat of a war in Eastern Europe and much of Europe dependent on Russian Gas for their energy requirements, and yes we also depend on some Russian gas too, keeping the lights on might be a bit difficult now, if Russia decides to turn off the gas, now that we have demolished a lot of our perfectly serviceable coal fired power stations. I realise that we have to plan for reducing our carbon output but I think keeping our people warm and our economy functioning takes precedence as far as I am concerned. Let’s get over any impending military action then refocus on Climate Change, or am I being too simplistic. Dave W

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

We're lucky that Russia is far far more tolerant than the USA or China

The last time they opened up a front in Cuba we nearly got WW3 and when we rolled up to the Chinese border in Korea we got the Korean war

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Russia might well use gas leverage on a small country, but never forget that they depend on foreign currency as much as everyone else, and gas is an important source of income. Sabre rattling is one thing, but denying themselves the revenue is a different animal. And of course increasing the price of energy is another way of reducing usage and environmentally beneficial.
Perhaps we should all go towards environmentally friendly warfare: spears, arrows, rocks and kites..

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

Posted by Samsaranda on 25/01/2022 10:20:47:

With the very real threat of a war in Eastern Europe and much of Europe dependent on Russian Gas for their energy requirements, and yes we also depend on some Russian gas too, keeping the lights on might be a bit difficult now, if Russia decides to turn off the gas, now that we have demolished a lot of our perfectly serviceable coal fired power stations. I realise that we have to plan for reducing our carbon output but I think keeping our people warm and our economy functioning takes precedence as far as I am concerned. Let’s get over any impending military action then refocus on Climate Change, or am I being too simplistic. Dave W

I agree with Dave it is crass stupidity to demolish these power stations — take them out of service and mothball them is a far better solution until we see what the future holds. We do need to and indeed must clean up our act, stop ravaging our planet of the finite resources and polluting our environment, remember the old kings quote " the world is not ours to do with as we wish we must account to those who come after " or something close !

John

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

You can buy your gas from anywhere in the world these days. No need for pipelines. They compress it and put it in giant high pressure gas tanker ships and send it whence it is needed. Australia exports all of its gas that way. Massive amounts too. Just a matter of paying the money for shipping…

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Hopper on 25/01/2022 11:32:35:

You can buy your gas from anywhere in the world these days. No need for pipelines. They compress it and put it in giant high pressure gas tanker ships and send it whence it is needed. Australia exports all of its gas that way. Massive amounts too. Just a matter of paying the money for shipping…

Being an island miles from anywhere makes ships almost the only way of exporting anything in bulk from Australia. Russia has the opposite problem: it's got hardly any coast-line. And the main customers for Russian gas are Europe and China, both with land borders. In Europe pipelines are usually the best answer.

Working out the cheapest way of moving bulk goods is quite difficult. Road, Rail, Canal, Sea, and Pipelines all have their pros and cons. The China-Europe Rail Link is an interesting example. Much cheaper than air freight, but slower. More expensive than shipping, but much faster. Rail is a useful alternative.

Unfortunately, like Europe's gas pipelines, part of the railway runs through Russia…

Dave

[StuwParticipant @stuw95558]

When Maggie put stockpiles on all the power stations she cared not a hoot for efficiency, the trucks and other forms of transport used to transport the coal, which is a valued addition to the efficiency data was included in the correct figures of 22 % maximum, that’s why data proves that these stations were 22% efficient, she wanted shut of them at any cost, the true figures were indeed 30 to 40 % efficient, but, that was not politically acceptable, she stepped up her hatchet job and dismantled the industry, the books were cooked to prove that the coal fired power station was a dinosaur to speed up the dash for gas,

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Posted by JohnF on 25/01/2022 11:25:34:

I agree with Dave it is crass stupidity to demolish these power stations — take them out of service and mothball them is a far better solution until we see what the future holds. We do need to and indeed must clean up our act, stop ravaging our planet of the finite resources and polluting our environment, remember the old kings quote " the world is not ours to do with as we wish we must account to those who come after " or something close !

John

Sorry, Both remaining the GB coal fired power stations (not counting the wood fired Drax) are more than 50 years old and even with retro-fits and upcrades are still getting a bit long in the tooth. The only newer one in the UK is Kilroot, which is only 40 years old.

Now we've shut the mines, inland coal fired power stations aren't as simple as they used to be.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Samsaranda on 25/01/2022 10:20:47:

…

I realise that we have to plan for reducing our carbon output but I think keeping our people warm and our economy functioning takes precedence as far as I am concerned. Let’s get over any impending military action then refocus on Climate Change, …

Or is impending military action just another excuse for not tackling much more serious problems?

I'm afraid humanity has run out of time already. We face a double whammy. Climate change is already causing moderate trouble and we are fully on course for climate catastrophe. Equally nasty, energy prices are going to rise through the roof because god isn't making any more fossil fuels. Our lives depend completely on cheap energy derived mainly from fossil fuels, especially oil.

Serious trouble ahead unless something is done.

Are we part of the problem? With every passing year I become more reluctant to accept change. Truth is I'd rather the whole world went to pot than I had to learn a new trick: I want to live in the past. But it's a selfish emotional reaction, not based on reality. Surely I should be more worried about food shortages and billions of people on the move than late magazines and smart meters?

Unfortunately old certainties are crumbling under our feet. It was always thus, but his time it's serious: time to stop dithering and get on with making the necessary adjustments. Let's be brave – engineers fix things.

Dave

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

[VicParticipant @vic]

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 21/01/2021 15:57:21:

Posted by not done it yet on 21/01/2021 14:26:35:

[…]

useless, as are suggestions that it is simply more than about 23 degrees north of the equator.

.

You are really on form, aren’t you !

I answered your specific question accurately, then included two riders by way of trying to help.

MichaelG.

You are both wrong, anyone from London knows that the North starts just past Hatfield.

[StuwParticipant @stuw95558]

For information, when I went to Drax on a day visit, the biomass fuel was monkey nut shells shipped to site from Georgia America, they were stored in vessels outside the boilerhouse, ground to powder in the mills and blown into the boiler through the normal system. The six 500 mw sets must use a ship load every day.

[MacolmParticipant @macolm]

Driving out coal and nuclear generation in the UK and most of Europe has been very successful, and there is also a presumption against further gas fired generation. The monumental failure of governments has been to put in place any practicable replacement.

A parable. You quite like lettuce, and your wife is crazy about them. To have fresh lettuce every day, you plant twenty rows of twenty, a total of um er, is it 400? Enough for a newly picked lettuce every day of the year, and some spare. What could possibly spoil such a brilliant plan?

Unfortunately, this appears very close to the thinking behind our electricity system, where the average output of renewables is assumed as always available, and without practicable provision for the prolonged periods of low wind that occur.

As a comparison, consider the Crossrail project. If it opens this year, it will have been 14 years from initiation. At the start, all the technologies were available and well proven, all that was needed was detailed planning and execution. A similar timescale is proposed for the electricity grid to become CO2 emission free, but in contrast, the key storage or backup technologies are currently not proven as practicable, or are even unidentified. Over last summer there were more than 10 weeks consistently low wind generation. To cope with such a situation would require an impractical amount of storage for current technologies.

Finally, from https://www2.bmreports.com , here is current UK grid data and prices. Yesterday, the balancing cost reached £4 per kwh. Today only 53p!

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Hopper’s posting about the abundance of gas produced by Australia and it being exported by ship is perhaps of little relevance to us on this side of the world at the moment because the majority of Australian gas is sold into the Asian market, with China being by far the biggest customer. Australia still produces huge amounts of coal, I remember 12 years ago when I was in Oz for my daughters wedding, seeing coal trains shuttling into Newcastle, fully loaded with coal for export, these trains were well over a kilometre long and hauled by three or four massive locomotives, and were discharged into gigantic bulk carriers on its way to China. Australia is a huge exporter of energy producing coal and gas, comments in this posting referred to the fact that we have no active coal mines left in the UK, if we had the need for it we could always import coal, I am sure Australia would only be too glad of extra business, the distance shouldn’t be a problem we bring oil from halfway round the world, we are after all part of a global market, of course a source of coal much nearer is Poland who produce substantial amounts. SOD seems to think that I am advocating abandoning our efforts towards Climate Change mitigation by perhaps using redundant coal powered generating stations, far from it I was only in favour of suspending it if and when war conditions prevailed and we had to resort to other means to keep the lights on and survive industrially. Dave W

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