The beginning of the end for Copper telecomms

[HowiParticipant @howi]

progress will always have it's winners and losers.

Technology will move on regardless.

The majority benefit to the detriment of a few, hasn't it always been the same?

There are lots of examples I could quote but I suspect it isn't going to change, now, or in the future.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 31/08/2023 09:18:46:

…
I do worry that VOIP does not have the resilience of POTS (plain old telephone system) A lot of people do not have reliable cellular coverage (not just in the "sticks" either) and there are some common failure modes. Ths most obvious of these is loss of power. There is no legal requirement for mobile operators to provide backup power and a lot of the backup that does exist is only for 3 hours.
…

Robert.

The two technologies have different failure modes. POTS depended heavily on complex electromechanical equipment that needed constant maintenance, which with all respect to my ex-GPO friends, was not always done we!!! And the system was a rich mix of ancient and modern, fielding everything from crank-handle plug-boards to transistorised switches via Strowger. The trunk backbone was a mixture of technologies. Took forever to have a phone installed (most people didn't have one), having to bellow into the handset (often fruitlessly), much snap, crackle and pop, crossed-lines, queueing for trunk and international calls and operators interrupting to ask if the parties had finished yet. And the network barely met computer needs at all.

For some time we've been using a hybrid. The backbone and exchanges have all been modernised. Voice is a secondary function, just another internet protocol. The backbone is being updated repeatedly to reduce latency and increase bandwidth (road widening!), and my spy tells me not all is well with the latest generation of new equipment. But it's much easier to upgrade than POTS was, and is highly meshed for reliability. BT's strategy was to upgrade the backbone first, and leave the exchange to consumer copper problem until later. Thus, we're already using VOIP, but the handsets and wiring is POTS to the exchange, or more likely these days, to a Green Box.

The Achilles heel of VOIP is power! POTS handsets are powered over the telephone line by the exchange, so they still work during a power cut provided the exchange has a big battery and standby generator. The exchanges of my youth had a massive lead-acid battery expected to last for a day or two. Don't know what power backup modern exchanges have, but I guess the backbone is well protected. In sharp contrast, our IP-routers run off the mains, making them vulnerable to tripping RCDs in the home, problems in the local supply system, short cuts, brown-outs and grid failures.

On the plus side, when BT eventually manage to replace all the copper with fibre, the service in remote locations will improve dramatically. POTS maybe good enough for voice on a Hill Farm, but not much else, and wire strung between poles don't like weather.

As always with new technology, there's risk a poorly planned switchover will foul up and annoy millions, but once it's working properly we'll all be happy. Even well-planned switchovers are likely to miss edge cases – fingers crossed I'm not one of them.

Dave

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Was told by a technician years ago that there was no fibre link to my property and there never would be from BT. Virgin connection is available but due to their policy of increasing the cost of service, usually around April 1st and T's & C's the so called 'Contract' price isn't worth the paper it's not printed on, so twelve years ago, they were told to go and get pregnant. Changed to Yackety Yack who INITIALLY did honour the price for the term of the contract BUT following the big boys also now go down the April fools game. Another change to Shell, but both Yak and Shell are tied to the BT line so 11 moggies 'speed' (2 to 4 REALLY), they will get the deep six this year as their planned rip off to me is due to go from £19 to £31 for 11 mogs and land line.

Enter BRSK who have strung overhead fibre lines all over with 1 GIGGLIE speed for £30 per month down to £25 for 100 moggies. Now given that as a wrinkly my internet usage only warrants about 10 to 15 Mogs if that was GUARANTEED speed for less than £20 fine BUT in their blurb they confirm NO unplanned increase for the duration of the contract period. Wonder what happens in April?? Don't need T'internet at warp factor 27, sadly, the list expands, :- Gipsies,tramps and thieves, car and double glazing salesmen and ISP's.

 

Regards Ian.

Edited By Circlip on 31/08/2023 10:38:28

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 31/08/2023 08:59:02:

I had similar misgivings … but have been assured that the 999 Service has ‘other channels’ open

… hence the ‘Emergency Calls Only’ message that appears on the mobile’s screen in out-of-coverage areas.

I have not, however, investigated further.

If someone on the forum understands the workings of this … an explanatory note would comforting.

Michael, I am not an expert but my understanding is that GSM mobiles (as part of the GSM standard) – when making an emergency call (112 or 999) are programmed to contact the nearest (strongest ?) cell tower (using 2G) without using network authentication, and such calls are routed by whichever tower the phone has contacted, to the nearest 999 handling centre.

You get the Emergency calls only message if the phone can contact a cell tower, but can't authenticate with your mobile operator. A mobile phone without a SIM card can still make such calls. If there is absolutely no coverage from any tower – you still can't contact the Emergency service.

[sam sokolikParticipant @samsokolik60334]

Posted by pgk pgk on 31/08/2023 08:15:16:

Superficially, Starlink looks like a good solution for rural areas. The reality for many of us is hills and trees. I don't think there's any way I could get a reliable Starlink connection here. Equally, the location of cell towers rarely gives more than 1 bar outdoors unless I walk across 2 fields and climb the hill to the south. The nearest fibre cabinet is some 3 miles away, and it'll be a while (if ever) before any company justifies running fibre to the scattered few dwellings here.
For the time being we manage with 5Mb/s and various outbuildings linked by powerline adapters gets me intrenet in home, shed, barn and my cheapish Motorola phone on 1p does have Wi-Fi calling but the landline is still our favoured phone link for voice calls with an old-fashioned analogue phone as backup for power outages.

If the copper goes down and one is too ill or injured to drive to an area with a cell signal it'll simply be game over.

pgk

If you want to check it out – Starlink has an app that uses your cell camera and location to see if there are obstructions…

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks for the info, Peter Cook 6

MichaelG.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

Here out in the sticks,that is civilised Hampshire in some areas, bt internet is a max of 3 mbps ,mobil phone coverage only just works at times,and they expect us to go digital,plus power cuts are frequent as the power lines are unreliable in bad weather.Bt arrived 18 months ago and put in a new set of poles,then after while strung out a fibre cable, i asked the installers when would the line be connected and wastold that they needed a connection a the end of the road,they were only installing the line as our rural which is three miles long has had a number of new dwellings built and there was some regulation that as the number of new buildings had exceeded a gertain number they had to install a fibre cable,but perhaps the regulations do not insist on connecting that line to an exchange.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

SOD,

Sorry if I was not clear. I was referring to internet connectionsa (VOIP) and cellphones having common failure modes, not POTS and VOIP / Cellular. I'm fully aware of how the POTS works. POTS is required by law to provide a universal service (waiting time not withstanding) and back-up power. Cellphone and IP services don't have these obligations.
There is a similar issue with GNSS (sat nav) there are now many systems that rely on position, navigation and time information from these services with no alternative. Yes there is more than one GNSS now but many older systems only receive GPS. Additionally a severe solar storm could knock out all GNSS, Starlink and a bunch of other systems.

Robert.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by sam sokolik on 31/08/2023 12:56:09:

Posted by pgk pgk on 31/08/2023 08:15:16:

Superficially, Starlink looks like a good solution for rural areas. The reality for many of us is hills and trees. I don't think there's any way I could get a reliable Starlink connection here. Equally, the location of cell towers rarely gives more than 1 bar outdoors unless I walk across 2 fields and climb the hill to the south. The nearest fibre cabinet is some 3 miles away, and it'll be a while (if ever) before any company justifies running fibre to the scattered few dwellings here.
For the time being we manage with 5Mb/s and various outbuildings linked by powerline adapters gets me intrenet in home, shed, barn and my cheapish Motorola phone on 1p does have Wi-Fi calling but the landline is still our favoured phone link for voice calls with an old-fashioned analogue phone as backup for power outages.

If the copper goes down and one is too ill or injured to drive to an area with a cell signal it'll simply be game over.

pgk

If you want to check it out – Starlink has an app that uses your cell camera and location to see if there are obstructions…

I spotted that today when looking at their site. At ground level by the house there's no chance and I can't see me climbing on top of the chimney to use my cell phone 😔

The only ground level test would be 150 yds from house for a sporting chance..a long way to post and cable..

[sam sokolikParticipant @samsokolik60334]

Posted by pgk pgk on 31/08/2023 15:34:01:

Posted by sam sokolik on 31/08/2023 12:56:09:

Posted by pgk pgk on 31/08/2023 08:15:16:

Superficially, Starlink looks like a good solution for rural areas. The reality for many of us is hills and trees. I don't think there's any way I could get a reliable Starlink connection here. Equally, the location of cell towers rarely gives more than 1 bar outdoors unless I walk across 2 fields and climb the hill to the south. The nearest fibre cabinet is some 3 miles away, and it'll be a while (if ever) before any company justifies running fibre to the scattered few dwellings here.
For the time being we manage with 5Mb/s and various outbuildings linked by powerline adapters gets me intrenet in home, shed, barn and my cheapish Motorola phone on 1p does have Wi-Fi calling but the landline is still our favoured phone link for voice calls with an old-fashioned analogue phone as backup for power outages.

If the copper goes down and one is too ill or injured to drive to an area with a cell signal it'll simply be game over.

pgk

If you want to check it out – Starlink has an app that uses your cell camera and location to see if there are obstructions…

I spotted that today when looking at their site. At ground level by the house there's no chance and I can't see me climbing on top of the chimney to use my cell phone 😔

The only ground level test would be 150 yds from house for a sporting chance..a long way to post and cable..

Where is your sense of adventure?

I think it only comes with a 50ft cable and you can get a 150ft cable..

[Anonymous]

Bit of an eye-opener this thread (thanks) because I suspect things are rapidly moving down the same path here in Canada – but not openly.

Edited By Peter Greene on 31/08/2023 19:16:29

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Business news this morning, there is a global shortage of copper! I hope the travellers did not watch it as they will be busy again.

[Author]

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