The beginning of the end for Copper telecomms

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Obviously Zen has vested interest in such matters, but this interesting note arrived today: **LINK**

https://www.zen.co.uk/blog/posts/zen-blog/2023/08/01/the-stop-sell-is-next-month-here-s-what-you-need-to-know/

Time for some forum members to shed a tear ?

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Interesting link Michael strangely I had the same conversation with a Openreach Eng, when the fibre cables were installed many years back they didn't bring the cables into our cul-de-sac just went straight across the bottom of the road so the guy was saying they have a big headache to manage the fibre installation when the time comes

H

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Yes, I was one who joined PO Telephones in 1979 on internal construction, and remained on those duties until the end of my working life, though I progressed from exchange construction (Strowger, operator services, & AXE10) to transmission construction, co-ax and fibre.

I'm now supplied at home by Plusnet via FTTC, but they won't provide a VOIP service in the future after copper switch-off.
Hence no landline style phones will be available, mobiles only.

I could do with the use of a conventional phone as well as mobile, so am currently thinking of moving to BT as they supply Digital Voice, which allows the use of a conventional phone in a wi-fi enabled mains adaptor, a bit like a wi-fi repeater/booster.

Has anyone else made that transition?

Bill

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

As you have probably guessed, Bill … I am already with Zen, on Full Fibre To The Premises and Digital Voice

Everything is working well [orders of magnitude better than the BT copper ever did]
The only serious ‘failing’ is that my Merlin@Home pacemaker monitor is not compatible with the Digital Voice system [and the cell-phone based alternative doesn’t work at my new abode] … No great problem, it just means I need more frequent physical checks at Wythenshawe.

MichaelG.

.

Zen supplies the FRITZ!Box modem, which handles analogue and DECT phones.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I'm waiting to see what happens when BT convert my phone. Shouldn't be difficult. There's an extension, wireless base, ADSL router and handy powerpoint. As my landline and broadband are both BT provided, I'm expecting BT to replace the copper line (from pole to house, easy access) with fibre and give me a new router and handset. Or maybe just a router and I have to buy an IP handset. The switch-over should be seamless except for me having to connect all my computers to the new router.

My mum is a bit more complicated because she has a big button phone that she can see and understand, an ADSL router set up by me, and a red-button alarm box. There's a power socket, and I think the red-box has an ethernet socket. With luck it's ready to go, otherwise the red-button device will have to be replaced, hopefully on the same day. I expect I'll have to attend to make sure it all works and buy a new big-button uncomplicated IP phone that mum can cope with. I have an idea grannie-friendly phones are pricey.

Worst case I suspect will be anyone who finds change difficult, has a complicated internal copper set-up, no power-point where the cable comes in, and lives in a hard to wire home.

I've long passed the age where I resent change being forced on me or my technically hopeless family members. They all look to me to make thing work! Should have kept my hobbies secret!!!

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Dave

no, I’m not on commission ]

[ Have a look at this: **LINK**

https://www.zen.co.uk/help-support/digitalvoicesetup

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 30/08/2023 19:12:30

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

I can't wait to dispense with BT and its rip-off prices and terms of business and I have been a customer since I bought my first house in the 1970's. A fibre-optic company cabled the village last year and asked me if I wanted to move my custom over to them. Unfortunately, to mitigate the horrendous price rise BT had just imposed on me I had just managed to negotiate a new two-year contract that I am currently locked into but as soon as it expires I will be going over to the fibre-optic service like a shot. BT had forced me to pay for services I did not want and never used although as soon as they thought I was leaving these features suddenly became non-compulsory and the monthly price dropped but it has since risen again. Does anyone use land-line voice mail these days? My introductory message warned callers not to leave a voice mail as the line was not monitored and to call the mobile number instead but the facility gone now, anyway. An annual price rise of RPI + 2% for no additional service or speed, and yes I know they are all at it if you read the bottom line of the TV adverts, but at least I will get a faster speed and keep my land-line number (can't think why I am retaining it because it's only ever called by our Asian cousins with their latest scam) at least two-thirds the price BT wants to charge me.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

SoD,

"I'm expecting BT to replace the copper line (from pole to house, easy access) with fibre and give me a new router and handset. Or maybe just a router and I have to buy an IP handset."

As far as I know you do not have to buy a VOIP phone. The fibre-optic company that has cabled our village provides a router that you can just connect your old analogue phone to. I don't know if this will be the same for all providers but it was the case for my neighbour who moved to a the new fibre-optic connection. He tells me that he just connected his domestic internal copper network to the new router and all his existing copper outlets are still working. I haven't seen the new router myself yet but I imagine there is a port which serves as a DAC or something of the sort.

Edited By Chris Crew on 30/08/2023 19:24:59

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

The old trunk twisted pair cable network, most of which terminated in B'ham Telephone house on it's way to and from both ends of the country was ripped out 10 years ago. The coax may still be there as there's not much metal in it.

I had some pleasure ripping out the fruits (90 tons of cable) of 23 years spent putting all that Transmission into service. Strange to see that 20 years after leaving the record cards so carefully filled in were still there. The building is now stuffed with fibre kit that needs no-one there permanently to look after it.

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

My 2d's worth.

Bill, you can use a normal landline phone with your existing broadband, all you need is an ATA ( Analogue Phone Adapter) and a contract with a suitable VOIP provider. Although I have a conventional landline, I also have an ATA and contracts with a couple of PAYG VOIP outfits. I use it either when the landline is otherwise occupied, or the rare occasions I want to call abroad – the VOIP providers are VERY cheap.

Dave – I suspect you may be disappointed. My understanding of the BT plan for the switch off is that they will not be rolling out Fibre to the premises everywhere in the 2025 timescales. For places with decently fast FTTC, i.e. fibre to the cabinet and copper from there to the house, they will simply replace your router with one that has a built in ATA (as above), and ask you to plug the landline into the back of it. Then they will transition your number to the Digital Voice VOIP service.

Out here in the sticks (we do have decent FTTC), each time I discuss an upgrade with BT they say I will have to convert to digital voice as part of the deal through the above path. Several people in the village have done so and are (as far as I know) happy with the outcome.

The biggest downside is that unless you install a UPS, if the power goes out you loose the landline, although with the ubiquity of DECT phones these days – which die when the power goes -= I suspect most people don't really notice.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

Posted by Dave Halford on 30/08/2023 19:23:21:

The old trunk twisted pair cable network, most of which terminated in B'ham Telephone house on it's way to and from both ends of the country was ripped out 10 years ago. The coax may still be there as there's not much metal in it.

I had some pleasure ripping out the fruits (90 tons of cable) of 23 years spent putting all that Transmission into service. Strange to see that 20 years after leaving the record cards so carefully filled in were still there. The building is now stuffed with fibre kit that needs no-one there permanently to look after it.

Dave, I know exactly what you mean. I spent 45 years of my working life in the telecoms industry but i never worked directly for BT. From Strowger to System X, and all types of exchanges in between, to installing and commissioning the MSAN's and fibre-optics when they bought the Chinese kit that caused the demise of my previous employer. The village exchanges were aIways immaculate in the early days but were left to deteriorate in later years. I finished with some cowboy outfit working on the green cabinets, the sort of firm that took all-comers, gave them two weeks instruction on how not incur any liability and loaded every business cost they could on to operatives they called their engineers. It was a joke! I used to say that some of the external network was a national disgrace given the over-loaded state of some of the cabinets and the records were never very accurate most of the time. I recall opening one cab and the whole lot just fell out on to the pavement under the sheer weight of the jumpering. Unless you could get a tone on the line you had no chance. Happy days, I loved every minute of it!

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 30/08/2023 18:59:17:

As you have probably guessed, Bill … I am already with Zen, on Full Fibre To The Premises and Digital Voice
…………….

MichaelG.

Zen supplies the FRITZ!Box modem, which handles analogue and DECT phones.

Yes I'd guessed, but thanks for the extra info.
FTTP isn't yet available here, so I'd still have to be FTTC, which is plenty fast enough for our needs; the limit for our data transmission is upstream.

I'd wondered about Zen, as I think they have a good reputation, but it looks like their VOIP product, also called Digital Voice, only works by plugging a phone into the router's socket, and probably OK extending wiring, so long as it falls within the router's REN supply capabilities.

I was earlier referring to BT's Digital Voice Adaptor, which would make life easier here, than trying to re-use the pre-wired copper phone cabling which is all plastered in from when the house was built in '95; the way it's been done isn't obvious, and I suspect has hidden underfloor junction boxes.
https://www.bt.com/help/user-guides/phones/digital-voice/digital-voice-adapter

Unfortunately, I think this adaptor only works with a BT home hub.

Bill

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

a few weeks ago there was a local power cut to around 100 houses (some fault in a local sub station) it also took out the openreach FTTC boxes in the street thus internet was lost even tho I could power up the router from a UPS – analogue voice over the copper pair still worked and allowed me to report the fault

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Frances IoM on 30/08/2023 20:34:26:
a few weeks ago there was a local power cut to around 100 houses (some fault in a local sub station) it also took out the openreach FTTC boxes in the street thus internet was lost even tho I could power up the router from a UPS – analogue voice over the copper pair still worked and allowed me to report the fault

The exchanges have big UPS units and generators so the copper still works. Street cabinets only have enough power to safely shut down

[vintage engineerParticipant @vintageengineer]

Cannot see them achieving that in the Highlands before 2025

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

Just switched from BT to a broadband provider on local fibre network for half the cost and eight times the speed. Decided to ditch the landline phone as it is hardly used other than scam callers. When I rang BT to cancel the woman agreed that there was no fibre for BT network to our property. We have two fibre lines down our street one is Virgin and the other City Fibre but BT doesn’t have access to either. BT are saying we will get voip within the next year but as far as I can see no fibre installations are being undertaken by them or Openreach locally, so I don’t know who they will connecting through. The one thing on price at least with my provider is they say no price increase while I am with them even after the initial 24 month term, unlike BT with yearly increases.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Chris Crew on 30/08/2023 19:47:32:
I spent 45 years of my working life in the telecoms industry but i never worked directly for BT. From Strowger to System X, and all types of exchanges in between, to installing and commissioning the MSAN's and fibre-optics………..

I can't work out whether I know your name just from here, or work as well.
Does Eldon House ring any bells?

Bill (though I was knows as Steve there; it's a long story)

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

"I can't work out whether I know your name just from here, or work as well.
Does Eldon House ring any bells?"

Yes, I remember working in Eldon House, Sheffield. First time was around 1975 on the big Strowger extension and then later on the various System X units. Can't really remember the names of many BT staff now but I always enjoyed working there, I think the last time would be around 1998 – ish. Time flies by!

[sam sokolikParticipant @samsokolik60334]

good riddance. My parents only decent internet was dsl (copper phone lines) (here in the US) and it sucked. They were lucky to get 1mbsX128kbs. (and it was down all the time)

The second starlink came available – I told them to sign up for the beta.. They got in and have been using it for the last few years. I can count on 1 hand how many times it was down (that we noticed) Speeds are variable but are around 100mbsX10mbs (at least) They now don't worry about the internet. It just works.

Do you guys have cell service that allows calling over the internet? That is what I use. I can make cell phone calls from within the machine shop at my parents – 0 cell signal – all through the internet. (starlink) works great also.. (so my parents cut the cord)

sam

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

"Do you guys have cell service that allows calling over the internet? That is what I use. I can make cell phone calls from within the machine shop at my parents – 0 cell signal – all through the internet."

We do have that facility but unfortunately my phone will not support it. I really must get a better phone!

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Superficially, Starlink looks like a good solution for rural areas. The reality for many of us is hills and trees. I don't think there's any way I could get a reliable Starlink connection here. Equally, the location of cell towers rarely gives more than 1 bar outdoors unless I walk across 2 fields and climb the hill to the south. The nearest fibre cabinet is some 3 miles away, and it'll be a while (if ever) before any company justifies running fibre to the scattered few dwellings here.
For the time being we manage with 5Mb/s and various outbuildings linked by powerline adapters gets me intrenet in home, shed, barn and my cheapish Motorola phone on 1p does have Wi-Fi calling but the landline is still our favoured phone link for voice calls with an old-fashioned analogue phone as backup for power outages.

If the copper goes down and one is too ill or injured to drive to an area with a cell signal it'll simply be game over.

pgk

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by pgk pgk on 31/08/2023 08:15:16:

.

[…]

If the copper goes down and one is too ill or injured to drive to an area with a cell signal it'll simply be game over.

pgk

.

I had similar misgivings … but have been assured that the 999 Service has ‘other channels’ open

… hence the ‘Emergency Calls Only’ message that appears on the mobile’s screen in out-of-coverage areas.

I have not, however, investigated further.

If someone on the forum understands the workings of this … an explanatory note would comforting.

MichaelG.

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

I have moved to the BT digital service. You get one phone to connect to the router. We used to have four cordless analogue handsets spread around including workshop and office and I thought it was going to be a pain losing this facility. Then found that there is a BT app available from IOS AppStore to enable all calls to be taken wherever in the world you are. You can make and receive calls from your mobile as if you were at home and they go out as if from your landline number.

Colin

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Starlink is Low Earth Orbit (LEO) so the need for a low angle view to the south (UK) to "see" a geostationary satellite over the equator is not there. As long as you can see a reasonable amount of sky it should work.
I do worry that VOIP does not have the resilience of POTS (plain old telephone system) A lot of people do not have reliable cellular coverage (not just in the "sticks" either) and there are some common failure modes. Ths most obvious of these is loss of power. There is no legal requirement for mobile operators to provide backup power and a lot of the backup that does exist is only for 3 hours.
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0028/247195/Battery-backups-telecom-networks-have.pdf

Robert.

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