Tender locos for a beginner?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by William Ayerst on 11/11/2020 16:57:33:

Ah, interesting. I will look at those sites also. My question still stands however, how much should I expect to feasibly fabricate vs buying as castings (regardless of prototype or gauge, and obviously – on average. I'm sure it will vary from person to person but a thumb-to-the-air estimate will be very helpful)

There's a huge unknown in the equation, which is William Ayerst!

There's a lot to learn and some people are naturally better at reading plans and machining than others. Progress involves a complex mix of skills, experience, facilities, time, money, determination and problem solving.

I'm not a natural. My first go at anything has a high failure rate but I'm much faster after the second or third attempt. Even though not a beginner I work more slowly than many on the forum. Not false modesty but I reckon JasonB works at least 5 or 6 times faster than me and his output is better finished too. He's not the only one.

Most things can be fabricated, but it takes longer and is likely to cost more. Castings are semi-finished and less metal is wasted as swarf. I always fabricate.

I learn best by starting simple and working up. I wouldn't dream of tackling a loco as a first project. Not lack of confidence, rather knowing that the build could take years as I learn on the job. Others relish the challenge and are energised by working towards big rewards. Depends on personality.

Overreaching early on has scuppered many a promising Model Engineer. The late great John Stevenson sometimes recommended accident prone members to take up knitting. As a series of 'just too difficult' defeats is demoralising and expensive I feel happier avoiding pitfalls by preparing and training. For example, interpreting drawings is a skill in itself. Much easier to spot mistakes in a complex set of drawings after building several simple projects, ideally from dodgy plans. I like to redraw plans before starting, ideally with 3D CAD. Incorrect dimensions, missing reference points, interferences, mirror images, impossible to fit, misprints, ambiguities and misunderstandings. It means I started by learning to draw…

Then there's learning to work effectively with several tools and different materials, some of which are downright awkward.

Not rocket science but a great deal of simple when you know how. Not knowing what you don't know makes estimating how long a project will take really difficult. Making something simple first is highly informative; one gets a 'feel' for jobs, success rate and personal stamina. If a Stuart 10 is knocked off in a week, the future is rosy. If it doesn't run after a year…

Dave

[IanTParticipant @iant]

William,

You will have to check prices for whatever you decide to build but one way to compare 2.5" to 3.5" is to look at similar engines. I'll use Masie and Ayesha – both Atlantics as examples.

With respect to castings for Ayesha, I haven't purchased castings for this engine but just talk to the N2.5GA. I doubt you will find them cheaper elsewhere and members get a better price.

Then you can compare them with Masie castings by looking here:

Masie castings at Reeves

A complete Masie casting set is currently £881

I can't give you any estimates for the boiler costs but you can probably get a feel for them by checking material prices. Here are a few samples…

Masie boiler – 18" long x 4.3/8" dia x 15swg vs Ayesha boiler – 12.5/8" long x 3" dia x 16swg

Masie – Flue/Fire tubes, 1" x 10" x 20swg (Qty 3) and 3/8" x 10" x 22swg (Qty 13)

Ayesha – Flue/fire tubes, 1/2" x 9" x 18swg (Qty 1) and 3/8" x 9" x 20swg (Qty 9)

If you can cost just these items and then add (say) 50% to each set – it will give you a feeling (not an accurate estimate) but at least some idea of what the two boilers will cost you in just raw materials. Btw – Masie's boiler may need updating – I'm not familiar with it. Ayesha II will be fine as published in 2007.

Then read Dave's post above and think carefully about this. Only you know what kind of motivation and determination you can bring to this project. Be honest with yourself (I know that I am absolutely dreadful at sticking to just one thing) . If you think you can do it – then build a tender and don't buy anything else (like engine castings or boiler material) until you've completed it. That can be your 'apprentice' piece as Dave is suggesting.

Hopefully, things will improve next year. Get out and visit various clubs and groups. Talk to them. watch them at 'play' and find out what seems to appeal to you most.

That's it. The rest is up to you but I'm sure there will always be folk here to help you with advice when you need it.

Best of luck,

Regards,

IanT

[RRMBKParticipant @rrmbk]

Ayesha would be a much simpler build than Elaine, probably about the same complexity as Eagle. Big advantage is wide firebox. If you go down the Eagle route be aware that there is a dimension problem on the main frames depending on which drawing set you get. Cant remember what it is at the moment, but contact me if you do decide to go for Eagle and I will check it out.

Again I would agree with the tender first philosophy. Minimal initial castings outlay and a good way to gain experience.

Good luck

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

H Ian, I've reached out to the info address at n25ga.org to get some info re: the cost of the castings. Boiler-wise, there doesn't really seem to be much in it from what i can gather, at least not compared to the casting costs (for Maisiie at least, proportionally for Ayesha I assume).

What is potentially swaying me, is this video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gdNXOL1igo – it just looks so natural and not at all contrived. I'm still not 100% convinced about riding behind a locomotive, it does seem a bit of a leap but I guess many things in this life are so I shouldn't judge too quickly yet.

Dave, thank you so much for your kind response. I had thought that the cost of fabrication would be LESS than the cost of castings and certainly this has dissuaded me from the 5" Maid of Kent. It was definitely not my intention to go straight from zero to a locomotive, I was planning on building some simple engines from castings (the Stuart 10V) or stock (a wobbler) before tackling a locomotive, but the loco is definitely the end goal.

 

Edited By William Ayerst on 11/11/2020 22:38:03

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Yes, some of the members like R/C on their locos but many prefer the "old-fashioned" way of running them. Even on a level track, it's quite a skill to run a loco free – and have it tick around without any issues (and no sudden sprints after a runaway train). That track is up in the North West William, so it would be a bit of a trek for you (unless you are popping in on the way to North Wales).

Gauge 3 Garden Railway in North West

IanT

[John BaguleyParticipant @johnbaguley78655]

Hi William,

Firstly, I will get back to you shortly with the prices for Ayesha that you asked about.

If you have any doubts about the feasability of riding behind 2½" gauge locos, here's a video of me driving the original LBSC Ayesha at Nantwich last year:

Ayesha at Nantwich

This loco is now nearly 100 years old and still goes well! The first loco on the video is a Martin Evans Black Five that also runs very well. The owner often takes this to G3 meetings as well as using it for driving on raised tracks.

The first loco that I built was a 2½" Gauge 4-8-4 three cylinder tank loco (Helen Long) which wouldn't be classed as a beginners loco by any means. The only steam engine I had built before that was a simple oscillator that I made in metalwork at school but didn't have any real problems building the loco. I only built it really because someone commented that no one would build a helen Long nowadays and I took that as a challenge!

You might find my website of some interest as I describe the loco build from start to finish plus various other projects.

John

[IanTParticipant @iant]

To save anyone searching for John' site (as he was too modest to include a link)

John Bauguley

Much of interest here to any Model Engineer – but most especially to builders of 2.5" gauge locos.

Regards,

IanT

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

If you are intending to build something simple first, , then the G1 Project is 'way to go'.

NO drawing errors, it will work and is as inexpensive to build as it can ever get.

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

This really is all very helpful, again I cannot thank you all enough, it's time to read through John's website.

Having been in contact with a number of model engineering societies it seems all of them are very down on 3-1/2" – neither as affordable or portable as G1, nor as robust and powerful as 5" gauge. Of course, nobody mentioned 2-1/2" or G3 at all

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

So I think I'm edging ever closer – as previously mentioned and after a good's night sleep it seems that 2-1/2" does 'model engineering' better than 3-1/2" in basically all aspects:

1. It is cheaper
2. It is easier to store and display
3. It can potentially be ridden behind OR run uncontrolled if desired
4. I could potentially build my own track

It would appear the only advantage that 3-1/2" has is that it can potentially haul more than one person, and that there's a slightly wider availablity of model engineering tracks to run on – although every one I've spoken to say it's almost as moribund as any 2-1/2" track.

As a complete coincidence, my girlfriend mentioned we should head down to Beachy Head on Monday – now if that isn't a sign, I don't know what is

So my choice now is really quite binary – either a 5" Maid of Kent, or a 2-1/2" Ayesha II in LBSCR-guise.

I like both locos, companies, liveries, etc. and the cost of a completed boiler is not so different. The only differentiator is the size and time taken…

Edited By William Ayerst on 13/11/2020 11:24:53

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by William Ayerst on 13/11/2020 10:43:03:

It would appear the only advantage that 3-1/2" has is that it can potentially haul more than one person, and that there's a slightly wider availablity of model engineering tracks to run on – although every one I've spoken to say it's almost as moribund as any 2-1/2" track.

It's fair to say that the larger gauges are more attractive these days and fewer are prepared to make their own, Station road claim 100 of their ready built locos sold.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Posted by Dave Halford on 13/11/2020 11:19:15:

It's fair to say that the larger gauges are more attractive these days and fewer are prepared to make their own, Station road claim 100 of their ready built locos sold.

Do you want to "build & run" or "buy & run" ? That is the question (or at least one of them)

Some of our members are far more interested in getting up and running live-steam engines than building them Dave (sometimes for very practical reasons) – so "ready built" is true in G3 too. At one time that meant commissioning a loco build from a semi-professional who probably batch built two or three engines to pre-order – and then you waited a year or two for delivery.

These days, the Chinese essentially provide the same service but batch build in a minimum order quantity of 50.

Today, there are over a hundred Gauge '3' Britannia's rumoured to be out there in the wild and you can buy a G3 RTR 4MT for less than £3.5k and a G3 Duchess for under £6K. Sounds expensive, until you look at the size and quality of the engine and work out the hourly rate if you were to build one.

I can't remember what the G3 GWR 14XX cost now but it was about on par with a high-end (scale) 16mm loco. So if someone wants to run G3 live steam without actually building an engine, they've always been able to do that – and it's even easier today.

But for many there is still great satisfaction in actually building and running our own engines. It takes a lot more time and effort but in some ways that the whole point. Something about it 'being the journey and not the destination' comes to mind. Of course, watching someone else steaming their brand new Brit, while you are still a very long way off ever finishing your 3-cylinder Pacific does make you a bit envious sometimes.

Depends on what you enjoy doing most.

Regards,

IanT

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by IanT on 13/11/2020 13:58:49:

Posted by Dave Halford on 13/11/2020 11:19:15:

It's fair to say that the larger gauges are more attractive these days and fewer are prepared to make their own, Station road claim 100 of their ready built locos sold.

Do you want to "build & run" or "buy & run" ? That is the question (or at least one of them)

IanT

Or just build?

I can't abide club politics so it's road steam for me.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

All the Clock makers, Stationary Engine builders, Motor Bike restorers, Tool makers, Aircraft Modellers (and indeed) Traction Engine builders have no idea what you are referring to Dave – because they don't need tracks to run on.

IanT

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

Well funnily enough my first thought was for a traction engine but was steered quite away from it by Jacquie at Blackgates as being overall a degree more challenging than a locomotive. I know absolutely nothing about traction engines, though – so I don't think it's a realistic option for me.

Annoyingly, I signed up for model engineer subscription to get back issues to look at Ayesha II – but it's in Adobe Flash I don't have access to that, so it was all a bit of a waste

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by William Ayerst on 13/11/2020 15:51:43:

Annoyingly, I signed up for model engineer subscription to get back issues to look at Ayesha II – but it's in Adobe Flash I don't have access to that, so it was all a bit of a waste

Well no actually. If you methodically read all the magazine starting as far back as they go you will learn all you need to know about model engineering. The detailed instructions on one locomotive equally apply almost 90%% to another plus you pick up tips that apply to all sorts of other things. My school didn't do metalwork classes but when I first got to use a lathe at work all I needed to be told after years of reading ME was the trick that a S&B model A has an on/off switch on the apron.

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

Sorry no, it's not a waste because it's ME, it's a waste because I can't actually view the content I paid for!

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

I've managed to get hold of some build articles for Ayesha II and am working through them.

Is it worth me paying for old bound volumes of (Vols. 97-101) of M.E. to check out the Maid of Kent? is the collateral information/articles in those magazines worthwhile even if I don't choose to build the Maid?

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

Well, after doing some research and calling around I'm somewhat aghast at the cost of pre-made boilers. There's less than 20% cost difference between a 5" Maid of Kent boiler, and a 2.5" Ayesha boiler from all the suppliers I contacted – shocking really! I guess that is because it's labour intensive, in addition to requiring expensive materials.

Honestly, it feels quite enough to scupper my plans entirely – twice the cost of my lathe for 'just' a boiler!?

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Ayesha is not a common boiler and extra time will be spent on preparing and ordering before the build.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Posted by William Ayerst on 15/11/2020 14:01:10:

Well, after doing some research and calling around I'm somewhat aghast at the cost of pre-made boilers. There's less than 20% cost difference between a 5" Maid of Kent boiler, and a 2.5" Ayesha boiler from all the suppliers I contacted – shocking really! I guess that is because it's labour intensive, in addition to requiring expensive materials.

Honestly, it feels quite enough to scupper my plans entirely – twice the cost of my lathe for 'just' a boiler!?

Yes, of course William. A pre-built boiler is exactly like a pre-built loco – you have to pay for someone's labour, facilities and knowledge. If you build the boiler yourself, it will just be the cost of materials and equipment.

But if you are going to build your own boiler – the 2.5" one would be a much safer bet than the 5" unless you can find a very helpful experienced 'helper' at your local MES.

Regards,

IanT

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

I think I would have been prepared to pay a little over the odds for a pre-made boiler, but not that much. If I'm going to roll the dice on my own boiler (I have a friend who has silver soldered before, and the model engineering club too), then I think it would make sense to make my stakes slightly lower than the £700+ for a 5" boiler.

I've sent a few more questions to John on the N25GA.org about Ayesha II but overall I'm quite satisfied with that option. I only live about a mile away from LBSC's home in Purley Oaks, I'm going to Beachy Head tomorrow and the LBSCR was my first railway obsession.

I think, I am decided. Thank you all! I will start a thread on the commencement of construction. Thank you again!

[Tony Wright 1Participant @tonywright1]

Have you ever considered making your own decisions

[Keith Rogers 2Participant @keithrogers2]

That's a bit harsh!

[Tony Wright 1Participant @tonywright1]

True though. Life’s about making your own decisions. Take advice no problem ,we all need help . But sometimes you’re on your own !

[Author]

Posts