Tender locos for a beginner?

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

(Preferably in 3-1/2", though I may consider 5" if there is a compelling argument)

I'm looking for information on building my first live steam locomotive. I am strongly considering a G1 loco, but I feel as though if I'm going to go to all the trouble I may as well do it 'properly' and have it with a proper reverser, boiler, coal firing, etc. so I am hoping to get a sanity check here.

Everything I've read says that a large scale loco should be:

1. Something I personally want to build – this rules out anything 0-4-0 or narrow gauge
2. Should not be a small tank loco, so tender locos or big tank locos ideal

Browsing through the AJ Reeves and Blackgates catalogue I can see there are plans/castings/parts for the following locos that I really like the look of – in no particular order:

• BR Britannia "Britannia"
• LMS Black Five – "Doris"
• LSWR S15 – "Greene King"
• Saint Christopher "GWR Saint"
• SECR L1 "Maid of Kent" – 5" Gauge
• LCDR Asia-class "Asia" – 5" Gauge

Are any of these more or less beginner friendly? I'm really not interested in the LNER/Scottish prototypes (i.e. the LBSC Maisie, Martin Evans RobRoy/William).

I don't have space for a track but I have half a dozen clubs within an hours drive with both 3-1/2" and 5" tracks. My gut is telling me that 3-1/2" is lighter, smaller, cheaper, can still pull people and can in theory be in a display case or plinth in the house.

I have an ML7 lathe and I'm going to assume at some point I'll need a decent sized mill, but haven't got one yet.

Any thoughts or opinions gladly taken.

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Well William, I'm not sure I'd consider a 3.5" Britannia a beginners engine exactly

You also mentioned Gauge 1, saying you'd like a reverser and coal firing etc – and then promptly jumped straight up to 3.5" gauge.

Why not consider 2.5" gauge? Plenty of locos to choose from as listed here:

2.5" Gauge Locomotive Designs

And this list doesn't include some of the newer designs (like Dick Allan's Gauge 3 'Dee' )

A fairly straightforward 2.5" 'tender' loco to build is Martin Evans 'Eagle' . There is at least one example I can think of that runs very nicely at our GTGs. It's a GNR (Ireland) prototype and looks very good in blue. It wouldn't bring the chimney breast down either if you plonked one on the mantelpiece.

Nor will a 2.5" loco damage your back or bank balance as much as a larger gauge loco either!

I am a bit biased of course!

Regards,

IanT

PS One of these would look good on display… (Dicks G3 "Dee" at a GTG in 2018)

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by William Ayerst on 06/11/2020 22:30:41:

(Preferably in 3-1/2", though I may consider 5" if there is a compelling argument)

I'm looking for information on building my first live steam locomotive. I am strongly considering a G1 loco, but I feel as though if I'm going to go to all the trouble I may as well do it 'properly' and have it with a proper reverser, boiler, coal firing, etc. so I am hoping to get a sanity check here.

Everything I've read says that a large scale loco should be:

1. Something I personally want to build – this rules out anything 0-4-0 or narrow gauge
2. Should not be a small tank loco, so tender locos or big tank locos ideal

Browsing through the AJ Reeves and Blackgates catalogue I can see there are plans/castings/parts for the following locos that I really like the look of – in no particular order:

• BR Britannia "Britannia"
• LMS Black Five – "Doris"
• LSWR S15 – "Greene King"
• Saint Christopher "GWR Saint"
• SECR L1 "Maid of Kent" – 5" Gauge
• LCDR Asia-class "Asia" – 5" Gauge

Are any of these more or less beginner friendly? I'm really not interested in the LNER/Scottish prototypes (i.e. the LBSC Maisie, Martin Evans RobRoy/William).

I don't have space for a track but I have half a dozen clubs within an hours drive with both 3-1/2" and 5" tracks. My gut is telling me that 3-1/2" is lighter, smaller, cheaper, can still pull people and can in theory be in a display case or plinth in the house.

I have an ML7 lathe and I'm going to assume at some point I'll need a decent sized mill, but haven't got one yet.

Any thoughts or opinions gladly taken.

All i can say William is that when you decide, take lots of pictures of your build & maybe start your own thread on here of the complete build. You will definately get lots of help & support as you go along.

I take it you are preparing for this to take a few years to build. A friend of mine (now extremely ill) has built many. He used to make a lot of boilers for Blackgates. His last 3 Foden trucks he built took i think 8 years to complete.

He was a slow but methodical worker. He even did his own cad drawings from full size & then scaled them down.

Good luck with your project.

Steve.

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

I do know that the Locomotive Asia on your list has a reputation for many errors in the drawings, I belonged to a club that had an experienced builder constructing one and he had many problems. I don't think it ever got finished as a result. David Scott who posts here occasionally is I think using CAD to try and sort out the one he is constructing. You are doing the right thing in asking for opinions, building a loco is a long and sometimes frustrating process, and mistakes on drawings don't help, I think it's appalling that there are well known errors on many of the popular drawings that the suppliers are aware of, but they have never been addressed . Some of these designs have been around since the 1940's.

I would agree with Ian T that 2 1/2" gauge is worth a look, but I am biased as well! These smaller loco's are very easy to transport too, I know from experience that a large 5" gauge engine can be awkward to move about on your own.

The range of loco's by Polly engineering always seem good to me, and having done some machining on a few of the larger parts for a friend I thought the casting quality was excellent, something that can't be said for all suppliers. I don't believe he found any significant errors in the drawings.

I'm not sure if there is a supplier of castings still but LBSC's Princess Marina in 3 1/2 always seems a good runner and is a fairly compact tender engine and not too complex. I've seen a few around at rallies over the years, there is a black one around with lot's of added detail that looks good and goes well.

Good luck with whatever you decide on.

Dave

[John RutzenParticipant @johnrutzen76569]

LBSC's Lion is quite a simple loco to build and in 5 inch gauge its a real puller. I've just built a 31/2 gauge one and it only took about a year and a half. But then i like the old engines. A 5 inch one won IMLEC a few years ago. It's not too heavy even in 5 inch gauge.

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

Maid of Kent gets my vote. As already suggested, not Britannia.

[Anthony KendallParticipant @anthonykendall53479]

Nobody mentioned Netta yet.

Available in 5 gauges

0-8-0 – all the weight over the wheels, "pulls like ell!"

2 cylinder

proven design

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Martin Evans 'Green Arrow' ticks all the boxes except 'size' but at least you will have 'done everything', boiler and all without a huge outlay.

Then do the big stuff.

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

First a general comment that I regret having to make and that is that there are errors in many, if not most sets of drawings and if you are able to 'buddy up' with another constructor who is building the same model you may well be able to help each other avoid them.

In general LBSC's designs tend to be simpler and have less true scale detail and therefore can be an easier and quicker build – unfortunately for you an exception is Britannia.

Doris has piston valves which demand more accuracy than slide valves, but what about Betty? Reeves do the castings and there is a constructional manual available which might be useful.

There are several variants of the Maid of Kent – inside/outside cylinders, different valve gears. The version with inside cylinders and Stephenson's valve gear has problems and there are at least two 'corrected' versions that don't always answer all of the issues, but the versions with Joy valve gear I have seen have been great.

Where do you intend to run you loco? If there is a 2 1/2" track nearby then this is an option, but these are less common than they were.

[Peter Simpson 1Participant @petersimpson1]

I went with a 5" gauge BR Standard 2. Castings from Reeves and also a good build guide from Reeves.

[Peter Simpson 1Participant @petersimpson1]

I went with a 5" gauge BR Standard 2. Castings from Reeves and also a good build guide from Reeves.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Posted by Nick Clarke 3 on 07/11/2020 09:11:14:

Where do you intend to run you loco? If there is a 2 1/2" track nearby then this is an option, but these are less common than they were.

There are still quite a few MES 2.5" tracks around Nick – and there are also of course Gauge '3' Garden railways too. Something rarely mentioned is that most G3 Society "Live Steamers" are also members of the National 2.5 Gauge Association and so run their larger (e.g. tender) locos both in driver-hauling (MES mode) at Rallies and in a Garden setting with carriage and wagon stock (Scenic mode) at GTGs.

I am a member of both organisations. The N2.5GA has a very good range of castings at reasonable prices by the way…

There has been a clear move to larger engines over the years, because folk have access to better & larger equipment and are generally more affluent. Of course, many MESs are reliant on 'Public Open Days' where the ability to haul heavier loads of (fee-paying) passengers is often a key part of the Clubs continued existence, something which I am sure is causing many great concern at the moment.

But there were (and still are) good reasons that folk used to build in the smaller gauges at one time – including the smaller equipment required, much lower material costs and ease of handling, transport and storage. I made the decision to 'down-gauge' a long time ago and I don't regret it. Things change (you get older for a start) and so do your priorities. Martin Evans made a comment once that 2.5" was too big to run "uncontrolled" and too small to pull passengers. That was before the advent of radio control and assumed that passenger hauling was an important criteria for everybody.

One other thought, whilst I attend (or at least used to) a number of GTGs every year and enjoy the social side of these events (meeting old friends, drinking tea and eating far too much cake ) the majority of my hobby time (99%) is spent alone in my Shed. Just me, the radio and my ageing machinery for company.

Fortunately, that's one thing that hasn't had to change much this year

Regards,

IanT

Edited By IanT on 07/11/2020 10:01:27

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

Nobody has yet mentioned Don Young’s Derby 4F 0-6-0 or his 2P 4-4-0, both 3.5 gauge tender engines and beginner friendly. 4F was written up in model engineer mag and the 2P was written up in Locomotives large and small. Castings for both locos are available from Reeves.

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

Hello all, apologies – I had a very long reply written out and then I hit a button and the whole bloody thing got lost. I have read everyone's replies and am very thankful for your thoughts and suggestions. If I haven't replied to a comment you've made directly please know that I have read it and it's forming my response.

Without wishing to inflict chapter and verse maybe it is best to ask a question to inform the next conclusion:

Large Scale Boilers – Am I going to need to buy-in pre-made? I'm alright at soldering and will presumably have to learn silver soldering. The reason I ask is that the extra £1200ish for someone to build for me would be a huge contributing factor on choosing smaller scales.

Gauge and Scale – I have thought long and hard about gauge and scale based on the thoughts here. I've yet to make a really solid decision.

I am leaning towards 3-1/2" gauge. It seems the perfect size to have a proper boiler and controls, to coal fire, pull a few people, sit inside the house on a mantlepiece, with a great balance of cost, weight and size. I would rather a Pacific in 3-1/2" than a 0-6-0T in 5", I think. However, any time I find videos of 3-1/2" locomotives there are comments that it's declining in popularity, that it's not seen as often as 5", etc. and can't shake the feeling I might be misunderstanding something. Can anyone help? 2-1/2" gauge is there also, but feels less likely.

Loco Choices – It appears I have a fair 'shopping list' of criteria:

• Avoid tapered boilers and piston valves if possible
• Be a large tank or tender loco if 3-1/2"
• Have a construction book
• Have castings available
• Have drawings with no errors or very clear corrections

I'm going to have my work cut out digging out a plan that meets all these

Edited By William Ayerst on 07/11/2020 17:09:19

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

There's always Nick Feast's Q1 as described in the Model Engineer.

Polly Models/Bruce Engineering sell castings and laser-cut bits, from what I remember. A fairly quick build, "different" locomotive, and not a lot of time making little brass bits!

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by William Ayerst on 07/11/2020 16:37:01:

1. Avoid tapered boilers and piston valves if possible
2. Be a large tank or tender loco if 3-1/2"
3. Have a construction book
4. Have castings available
5. Have drawings with no errors or very clear corrections

I'm going to have my work cut out digging out a plan that meets all these

Edited By William Ayerst on 07/11/2020 17:09:19

Your first four points seem very sensible, but number 5 (Apologies I numbered them to make them easier to identify) is harder. A great many designs have errors and even having the magazines does not help as a fault discovered a couple of years after a design was published may not be in the plans you buy or mentioned in the original edition of the magazine!

If in doubt ask here or there are other websites as well, or if you are a member of a club ask there.

Many successful locos have been built from drawings with errors in them with support from the model engineering community.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I can see you have set your heart on 3.5" gauge William.

You keep mentioning "coal fired" – well all my current G3 boilers are coal fired – although I may use gas firing for one of the smaller designs on my list, which has a very small grate. Out of curiosity, I've just quickly measured my Pacific boiler (it's about 410mm long x 83mm diameter) and a quick back-of-fag-packet calculation says that it would be about 579mm x 117mm in 3.5" gauge (assuming 3/4" scale) just to give you some idea.

'UK' loco construction books tend to be by LBSC or Martin Evans, plus the G!MRA books and various 16mm N/G ones. Otherwise you may have to widen your choice to include designs serially described in ME or EIM.

However, if I was building in 3.5", wanted a really detailed and wonderfully illustrated construction book (and was willing to consider something a little different) then I think I would be very tempted by one of Kozo Hiraoka's engines. His books are really the best I've ever seen, a blend of science and art. The "New Shay" might be a good choice, it's his most recent design I believe.

Drawings with "no errors" – well that might also be a bit of stretch. I think there will always be some on older designs, so it's best to 'sanity check' as you go along or just re-draw the whole thing in CAD (or even better find someone who already has done so).

Anyway, good luck with your engine build.

Regards,

IanT

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

IanT – My heart is really not set at all. I can look at a meths-fired Gauge 1 loco and find it wonderful, and I can look at a 5" Evening Star and find that equally enthralling. I think that's my problem – at the moment I'm struggling to find a differentiator to steer me one way or another.

Your (?) line is certainly wonderful, if it's the one I see in the background for your Dee picture. In fact it's so beautiful that I can't help but notice it in almost all of the 2-1/2" running session videos I've seen on YouTube!

If this were any other type of endeavour I would be considering a staged approach starting from the smallest and least expensive i.e. a G1MRA Project, then something in 2-1/2", and so on – until I found my sweet spot. As it stands though, everyone is telling me these are projects that can be upwards of multiple years and so I may not have the luxury of experimentation either in years or financially.

How would you categorise working/machining/etc. in 2-1/2" compared to G1 or 3-1/2" for someone who has no hands-on experience of either (yet)! What I don't want, is to be caught in a situation of being neither fish nor fowl with regard to tools, jigs, equipment, etc.

What would you recommend as a loco to build with the aforementioned criteria?

John Alexander Stuart – The Q1 does look lovely, but by gosh the drawings are in metric…

Nick Clarke 3 – That is frustrating, I would hope not to have to rely on the good will of the kind folk in this forum (for example) to help me vet a potentially problematic design i.e. Asia listed above. As I narrow down my focus hopefully I can get some feedback that isn't too onerous on everyone's generosity

 

Edited By William Ayerst on 07/11/2020 19:02:40

[alan-lloydParticipant @alan-lloyd]

You could consider the southern Q1, available parts from Polly

[Perko7Participant @perko7]

From what I understand there are quite a few LBSC Virginia's running around the world, that should indicate a relatively straightforward project with easy access to build logs, corrected drawings etc.

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

I've just finished a 3.5 Gauge "William" by Martin Evans (someone else started it, I finished it). Other than a few smal stationary engines I'm a novice. I didn't make the boiler but I made all the fittings. I realise you said its not of intrest but certainly consider it, its a lovely locomotive. 

It has a build book, a non-tapered boiler, Is a decent size (about as large as one person can lift safely), and being 3.5 gauge the tracks are more readily available than 2.5 gauge. I can't think of a better choice personally, but I'm biased. As you can see there are still some cosmetic things to do.

 

Edited By Jon Lawes on 07/11/2020 23:33:13

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

This is the build book.

I'm also building a Britannia at the moment, it is more complex but you only build it one piece at a time, and you can keep going until you get it right. That being said, its years of work.

Also this website lists lots of different steam locomotives you can build, its a wiki site so the info is better for some than others. Full Disclosure; I started the site so again am biased.

https://smalllivesteamengines.fandom.com/wiki/SmallLiveSteamEngines_Wiki

Edited By Jon Lawes on 07/11/2020 23:37:44

[IanTParticipant @iant]

That line is in Bedfordshire William and it is normally very popular with G3S members because it has twin running circuits for live steamers and a branch line for the R/C engines to operate on. There are other G3 railways around the country but this one is quite central, so gets people from London, the Midlands and South East. It's also a G3S boiler test site at the beginning of the running season – so I guess those are the reasons it tends to get photographed a lot.

The best way to settle your mind normally, would be to go and look at the different options and try to narrow down what you want out of your hobby. We often have guests who are invited to GTGs and are free to chat to members about their engines and have a drive. Not possible at the moment I'm afraid.

Putting aside the engine choice for a moment – there is another aspect you might want to think about.

Both G1 & G3 hold their GTGs in private gardens which are hosted by the owners. Many Hosts run informal events for local members, as well as the 'official' ones for the wider membership. Hosts generally fund and maintain their own railways, although local members often volunteer to help them out. Membership fees are generally in the order of £20pa or so – because it mainly just has to cover the Newsletter/Journal.

Model Engineering Societies (MES) are located in a specific location and their members are normally fairly local to that place (City/Town/County). They need to have a reasonable plot of land for the track and usually also some kind of club house and storage. Members are expected to help maintain the track, buildings and scenery. The costs of running a site can be considerable, which is either met by the membership or fund-raising – often both.

The N25GA holds 'Rallies' at Host MES (with 2.5" tracks) so is kind of a halfway house – a GTG at a MES if you will.

Membership of a local MES will usually provide access to great facilities and support (assuming that you are reasonably close) but it does come with an expectation that members will also 'contribute' their time and effort back when and as required.

G! and G3 are 'National' in nature and membership doesn't come with quite the same level of overhead but the downside is that you will probably not have free access to track whenever you want or need it (unless you get to know a local Host very well)

If you build in 3.5" or 5" you are essentially going to have to join a MES to run your engine. If you build in G1 you will have garden railways you can visit – and hopefully a local Host who welcomes informal running. In 2.5" you can run at G3 GTG or N25GA Rallies and/or also join a local MES if they have a 2.5" track (But they will tell you you should have built bigger)

In any Society, Association or Club, there are always those who do much of the work and those who (for whatever reason ) are less willing to give their time. This might show as problems getting people to volunteer for the Committee or the fact that it's always the same 'willing horses' that turn up to cut the grass or maintain the track at the MES.

I can't really tell you what loco will give you the most satisfaction (or enjoyment) to build and run – but I can tell you that I think being a member of a MES will probably demand more commitment from you. For many this is a bargain they are delighted to accept (and they are duly rewarded) but not everyone understands this side of the deal in my experience.

Regards,

IanT

.

[RRMBKParticipant @rrmbk]

As Ian T has mentioned there are a number of options in 2 1/2 gauge, Many will pull the driver with ease but very few that will " pull a few people. This is as much due to the additional weight and friction of passenger trolleys and adhesive weight as anything. Also part of the reason why 3 1/2 gauge is less popular I personally believe.

If you want to just enjoy driving and pull yourself 2 1/2 is cheaper and lighter than 3 1/2. with the added ability to run on G3 rails if made to the correct specification.

If you want to pull passengers, then people tend to go for 5" as there is relatively speaking little difference in time, materials or costing between 3 1/2 and 5" and the latter will pull significantly more. I feel that is more the case rather than any particular decline in 3 1/2 Gauge

The majority of 2 1/2 gauge designs have construction notes available from the Association http://www.n25ga.org and you also have a wealth of experience in members of both the Gauge 3 Association and the 2 1/2 gauge Association.

With regard to Silver soldering the boiler, it does need some reasonable investment in the right equipment propane or oxy propane with the relevant torches, regulators and hoses/ blowback arrestors. Also a decent hearth or insulated working area. which ideally needs to be separate from your indoor workshop. It also needs a good deal of practice to get right and puts many people off because of the high cost of material for a copper boiler which has an element of total write off if you get it wrong. That said once you understand the principles of silver soldering and position the heat correctly to promote the necessary capillary action it is a straightforward process.

At a rough estimate, any tender engine in any gauge has say 800 to 1000 individual parts in it not including nuts bolts and rivets. If you make a part a day, every day of the year that's still over two years work. So getting your choice right at this stage is a very wise move. Also the workshop equipment needed for 2 1/2 or G3 is significantly smaller/ lighter than required for 5" or a larger 3 1/2 Gauge engine.

As both a member of G3A and the National 2 /12 gauge Association I have always found help and information in this gauge as plentiful as in any other.

Hope this helps your decision making

[Author]

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