Tap and Die Set (occasional use) worth buying

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Quite agree the few car boots ive been to all the tools are rusty c**p

[VicParticipant @vic]

These are the best Dies I’ve ever used. Sadly I only have M4 and M6 versions.

They always cut cleanly and to size.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Err, but who sells them?   The Armeg website lists only an electricians conduit set, as do other sellers.  Only ebay list M2.5, M4, M5 and M6 Armeg dies, all embedded in a their own diestock, not available from Armeg direct, so possibly a discontinued range.   No taps.

Might be good tools, but only available in a few sizes?  The conduit set suggests Armeg sell to tradesmen rather than workshops. Dunno!

Dave

[Dave DanielsParticipant @davedaniels93256]

Just to add my 2 pennorth FWIW

 

I’ve had many serviceable items from both ARC and Tracy Tools, and the odd dud.

But like Andrew and others 100% satisfaction from Drill Service and also these folk:

https://www.engineeringsupplies.co.uk/taps-hand-taps-accessories.html

D.

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The metric coarse taps that I use the most on engines are YG-1 TC804 general purpose spiral flute machine taps which are mostly hand driven. From Cutwel when on offer. If it is just a jig or arbor then I’ll use the ARC spiral flute or point ones. Coarse dies are Volkel.

For metric fine I use the ARC spiral flute and their solid dies upto M8, above that a bit of a mix of NOS. I tend to use these in place of ME threads these days.

 

BA and ME don’t see much light of day in my workshop now and they were just a mix bought as and when needed over 30 odd years

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

Err, but who sells them?   The Armeg website lists only an electricians conduit set, as do other sellers.  Only ebay list M2.5, M4, M5 and M6 Armeg dies, all embedded in a their own diestock, not available from Armeg direct, so possibly a discontinued range.   No taps.

Might be good tools, but only available in a few sizes?  The conduit set suggests Armeg sell to tradesmen rather than workshops. Dunno!

Dave

Roebuck, now owned by Rubix used to sell them. Similar ones were also made by FEW. They now seem to have disappeared? Shame, as they are very good.

[Vic]

On Vic Said:

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

Err, but who sells them?   The Armeg website lists only an electricians conduit set, as do other sellers.  Only ebay list M2.5, M4, M5 and M6 Armeg dies, all embedded in a their own diestock, not available from Armeg direct, so possibly a discontinued range.   No taps.

Might be good tools, but only available in a few sizes?  The conduit set suggests Armeg sell to tradesmen rather than workshops. Dunno!

Dave

Roebuck, now owned by Rubix used to sell them. Similar ones were also made by FEW. They now seem to have disappeared? Shame, as they are very good.

I gave up recommending pubs years ago because they kept changing.  Not unusual to find since my last visit that a previously friendly establishment with a good cook had been taken over by a foul family whose bad attitude was driving customers away, and just to make sure of bankruptcy they had replaced their award winning chef with a microwave and deep freeze!

Mind you, running a pub isn’t easy.  I had friends in the trade and was amazed at how hard they worked, remaining cheerful in public under all circumstances, no matter how serious the latest backstage catastrophe!

Dave

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

I forgot to mention the “Sherwood” brand of taps and dies. They always seem to be available somewhere on the net relatively cheaply and they are good quality.

Another place to look is GBR engineering. They sell Osborn brand. Again good quality for the money.

[VicParticipant @vic]

There are still a few of these available on eBay. I’ve just ordered an M5 to fill a gap.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Just to show that solid dies are not just for restoring or cleaning existing threads. A couple of lengths of 2mm stainless steel threaded with an M2 x 0.4 coarse solid die. No chamfering of the end first, no reduction in diameter of the stock 2mm 303 bar, no backing off just cut under power at 150rpm, anointed with CT-90 to taste.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

Just to show that solid dies are not just for restoring or cleaning existing threads…

 

Does anyone know when and why this change occurred?   When I started in the hobby, majority opinion by far was that solid dies were only for cleaning up, and unsuitable for cutting new threads.   Only slit dies were the real McCoy, solid dies were all rubbish, to be avoided by newcomers at all costs.    This was holy writ, and time-served machinists would blow a gasket if the mantra were challenged!

I had strong suspicions something was adrift. As an innocent Radio Amateur doing a bit of ‘chassis bashing’ I bought an inexpensive BA set, which is still going strong cutting new threads 50 years later.   All the dies are solid.

Just a theory, but maybe dies were split in Victorian times to suit manual methods.  New split dies allow the thread size to be adjusted for a specified loose or tight fit, whilst the slit also lets impecunious owners of clapped out dies to take up wear and tear, thus extending the dies useful life.  Both useful features.

Automatics and CNC machines, I theorise, have no use for the slit.   Dies are auto-loaded straight into the machine and expected to cut to specified size immediately; when a thread moves out of tolerance due to the die wearing, the die is simply replaced.   On a CNC machine slit dies are an avoidable cause of inaccuracy, not good.

My guess is solid dies started to become more than thread finishers before WW2, but only in modern factories using automatics.   Conservative workplaces knew nothing of the change, and even when automatics became common in industry, our education system probably continued to teach split die orthodoxy for decades.

After 1980 or so the CNC revolution really kicked off, causing demand for solid dies to rocket,  whilst demand for split dies started to fall.  Today, most dies are solid, probably because the vast majority end up in CNC machines, not manual workshops.

Not bad news for hobbyists.   Makes it more likely that split dies of industrial quality will appear as New Old Stock on ebay at reasonable prices because the pros don’t want them.  Plus there’s nothing to stop us splitting solid dies with a Dremel!   The only disadvantage is another lump of folklore bites the dust. The fiercely held belief that solid dies are always bad news, is wrong!

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Noting Dave’s point … I just had a look at :

https://www.cutwel.co.uk/threading/dies-die-nuts-die-stocks/split-dies-adjustable-die?pitch_universal=395022

which is their smallest listed Adjustable Die

.

Aside from the eye-watering price, I struggle to see how any mere mortal could make adjustments to that, on any useful scale.

Anyone care to design a nano-adjustable holder for it ??

MichaelG.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

One thing that gets my goat slightly about topics like this, is the way everyone suggests brand-names that worked for them, rather than identifying where the cr*p came from.

Buying taps and dies from industrial suppliers like Dormer is a no-brainer until the bill is presented!  Then I have to sit down and put a new battery in my pacemaker.

Money being an issue, I’ve had reasonable success buying what I call “mid-range” taps and dies.  These I identify largely based on them being not-too-cheap, and the reputation of the seller.   Though it doesn’t get me the best possible tools, they deal well-enough with my workload, which is light.

I suggest the nature of the workload is important to know, and recommendations that don’t explain how the tools will be used are of low value.   There’s an enormous difference between me slowly tapping a few tens of threads per month in forgiving metals, and someone tapping hundreds into nasty stainless at full speed.     Although mid-range tools will be good-enough for my requirement, the other guy should spend more!

That we all know poor taps and dies exist begs the question, who sells the rubbish, and why do we buy them?   So inverting the original question, can anyone recommend a source of unacceptably poor taps and dies?   And why did you buy them?

Dave

 

 

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

One thing that gets my goat slightly about topics like this, is the way everyone suggests brand-names that worked for them, rather than identifying where the cr*p came from.

Buying taps and dies from industrial suppliers like Dormer is a no-brainer until the bill is presented!  Then I have to sit down and put a new battery in my pacemaker.

Money being an issue, I’ve had reasonable success buying what I call “mid-range” taps and dies.  These I identify largely based on them being not-too-cheap, and the reputation of the seller.   Though it doesn’t get me the best possible tools, they deal well-enough with my workload, which is light.

I suggest the nature of the workload is important to know, and recommendations that don’t explain how the tools will be used are of low value.   There’s an enormous difference between me slowly tapping a few tens of threads per month in forgiving metals, and someone tapping hundreds into nasty stainless at full speed.     Although mid-range tools will be good-enough for my requirement, the other guy should spend more!

That we all know poor taps and dies exist begs the question, who sells the rubbish, and why do we buy them?   So inverting the original question, can anyone recommend a source of unacceptably poor taps and dies?   And why did you buy them?

Dave

 

 

Dave

You make, in my opinion, some excellent points some of which harmonise with my original question.

In particular your point on workload. I was very careful in my original post to specify “occasional use” although granted I did not quantify that. In reality your “few tens of threads per month” will massively over shadow my annual demand!!

But this workload versus lifespan point, which I fully understand and agree with, brings us back to one of my original points. Buying “budget” and accepting in a few years time they will be worn, past their best, u serviceable and need replacing is one thing. And I am prepared to accept that. But, buying “budget” and finding the thing simply does not work on first use out of the box is another matter completely and one that I am not prepared to accept.

So to your final question. From my experience I can recommend the Vevor 40 piece set as rubbish, and that is not an over statement. Why did I buy them? The set gave me the range I wanted, plus a couple I’m unlikely to need, and price. Thinking about the cost of a “professional set” (at let’s say, £150 just for arguments sake) forme whether I Dan afford to spend that much money isn’t the consideration. Rather it’s the consideration that I could not justify to myself spending that much one something I would like to own for occasional convenience rather than a genuine must-have essential need.

Anyway, to round the story off. My complaint to the supplier was direct and to the point. But I gave up on the return option and instead accepted a partial refund (over 70% I think it equates to). I was satisfied with that as I still have two usable tap wrenches and a die stock I can make use of. The downside is I still don’t have a tap and dies set ro hand for occasional use! But, I will address that again, this time a little wiser thanks to having raised the question in this forum….

Andy

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