Tank Cupolas…

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Can anyone answer this question…

On a Vicker's Light tank or similar the 'turret' bears a smaller 'cupola' which the commander sits in or pokes their head out of.

Form appearances, this is designed to rotate, which make sense.

But do they?

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Hi Neil,

If stuck, try " Bovvy" – Bovington Tank Museum in Dorset.

Merry Xmas n rgds,

John

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

In all of the photos I've seen the hatches appear to be positioned fore and aft which would suggest that the cupola was fixed but there appears to be a bit of a discrepancy between these photos…

which seem to show the view-port facing slightly rightwards (first pic) or directly forwards (2nd & 3rd).

So, it's hard to know for sure.

Jon

Edited By Jon Gibbs on 15/12/2017 15:26:27

Edit: Ahhh, Wikipedia says… "The Mk VIA had a return roller removed from the top of the leading bogey and attached to the hull sides instead, and also possessed a faceted cupola.[7] The Mk VIB was mechanically identical to the Mk VIA but with a few minor differences to make production simpler, including a one-piece armoured louvre over the radiator instead of a two-piece louvre, and a plain circular cupola instead of the faceted type.[7] "

So, perhaps the VIA faceted cupola has the two viewports (picture 1) whereas the VIB has the one viewport facing forward. 

Edited By Jon Gibbs on 15/12/2017 15:32:59

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Thanks John,

Two of those photos are new to me (and I have collected a fair few). The second one shows the rather basic sight well; how on earth you were expected to use it looking through the slits with the visor closed I have no idea!

I think the best bet for now is simply not to fix it in place!

Here's progress so far, waiting for proofs of ME 263 to upload has given me time to fit the smoke grenade launchers today.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

All the photos I've seen show the cupola pointing forward on top of the turret. That implies it's fixed.

I don't think the photos prove it though. The commander would normally want to see what was in front of the gun, making the 'cupola ahead' position most likely to be photographed. It's still possible that the commander was able to rotate the cupola to get an all-round view when necessary.

As I can only see one viewport in the cupola, if it's fixed, the commander would have to slowly turn the whole turret to see behind or to the sides. Not ideal in a vehicle intended for reconnaissance, therefore I guess the cupola rotates. On the other hand, you wouldn't want the cupola to come off under attack. It would be safer for the commander if it were firmly fixed.

Anyone live near the Bovington Tank Museum?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Looking again at Jon's first picture, although the hatch covers are aligned front/back, the closed viewport is looking right. It's in a different position compared with Jon's second picture where the open viewport is looking ahead.

The photos appear to show the cupola moves whilst the hatch stays aligned with the turret. Surely that's unlikely? Unless the commander sits in a fixed ahead seat to which the hatch is attached, inside a rotating cupola?

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Neil, why not ask on our sister forum Mil Mod?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

There's a second viewport on the back of the cupola. Logically it must(?) rotate, but I imagine it had a detent for straight ahead. bear in mind that outside exercises/combat the commander would spend most of the time with his head out of the hatch.I'm not sure I have seen one genuine combat picture

If I've learned anything from this, it's that a small, stumpy tank looks very different at different angles!

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by JasonB on 15/12/2017 16:32:31:

Neil, why not ask on our sister forum Mil Mod?

It won't let me log in!

Will have to wait for MEW 263 to be finished then I will sort it

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

3 screen captures from Tank Chats#6 on youtube

Number one below: hatch opening to side, no viewport visible

Number 2: Damaged tank, hatch and viewport skewed anticlockwise relative to turret rear

Number 3: viewport facing sideways towards camera.

I think the best explanation is that the cupola rotates.

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 15/12/2017 16:51:06:

It won't let me log in!

Don't forget you are Stubby on there and not Neil.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by JasonB on 15/12/2017 18:47:22:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 15/12/2017 16:51:06:

It won't let me log in!

Don't forget you are Stubby on there and not Neil.

Yes, but which one of my seven email addresses….

Neil

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Don't spose you could ring up the nearest bloke who's got one lying around in the garage, go round his house and when you're sitting in the top see if you can shimmy from left to right and notice the whole ring move? I'm sure they've had these kinds of questions before.

[Alan VosParticipant @alanvos39612]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 15/12/2017 18:39:50:

3 screen captures from Tank Chats#6 on youtube

Number one below: hatch opening to side, no viewport visible

That is the image I find most persuasive. That sharp internal corner below the front of the cupola would seem an odd feature for a tank if fixed.

[Ed DuffnerParticipant @edduffner79357]

In my plans for a Tiger 1 from Bovington Tank Museum (2003) is a list of other plans they keep, including:

Light Mk VI
Light Mk VIA
Light Tank Mk VIB
Light Tank Mk VIC

Ed.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 15/12/2017 18:39:50:

3 screen captures from Tank Chats#6 on youtube

Number one below: hatch opening to side, no viewport visible

Number 2: Damaged tank, hatch and viewport skewed anticlockwise relative to turret rear

Number 3: viewport facing sideways towards camera.

I think the best explanation is that the cupola rotates.

Dave

Wow, that's great, the video is very good, I'm following the Bovingdon one for most features.

Damn my whole evening gone to tank chats…

Neil

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 15/12/2017 20:44:02:

Damn my whole evening gone to tank chats…

Neil

Given how cool these photos are, I can think of worse ways to spend an evening

Michael W

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> That sharp internal corner below the front of the cupola would seem an odd feature for a tank if fixed.

There's a half-round trough that runs across the right 2/3 of the top of the turret casting that shadow. I think it's probably some sort of cover for vent holes.

Neil

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Can we have an object in the foreground like a penny, to compare the size of this turret, (is it all 3D printed or a modified kit?) It looks pretty chunky on that worktop!

PS. with the position of those rivets it would suggest to me that the cupola was a fixed feature, possibly designed simply to give ample cover to anyone sitting/viewing out the top. 

Michael W

 

Edited By Michael-w on 16/12/2017 13:44:25

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

I can't imagine that a cupola would be fixed to show the commander only what's under his guns – you might as well put him in blinkers.

[mike TParticipant @miket56243]

In the years leading up to and even during WW2 it was normal (the done thing) for the tank commander to have head and shoulders outside the turret or cupola at all times. That was the only way he could have 360* vision and situation awareness of the battle going on around him. If you could not see your enemy or your target, you would soon be dead.

If the tank came under direct small arms fire or a concentrated mortar bomb attack, then the commander could duck down inside. He would still need to put his head outside from time to time to identify his attackers and return fire.

A fixed cupola aligned with the main guns would have worked. Perhaps the cupola could be unlocked and rotated but straight ahead would be the normal position for it.

Mike the tank

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Michael-w on 16/12/2017 13:41:00:

Can we have an object in the foreground like a penny, to compare the size of this turret, (is it all 3D printed or a modified kit?) It looks pretty chunky on that worktop!

PS. with the position of those rivets it would suggest to me that the cupola was a fixed feature, possibly designed simply to give ample cover to anyone sitting/viewing out the top.

10" diameter, the black top is in four parts, the white sides in six.

Neil

[mike TParticipant @miket56243]

British tank crews normally wore woolen berets, not tin hats during a fight. If you were hit by an anti-tank round, you never heard it coming and it did not matter much whether your head was inside or outside the turret. Small arms fire was all you protect yourself from, the rest of the time the commander was 'head out' and looking everywhere.

Mike the tank

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 16/12/2017 16:33:02:.

10" diameter, the black top is in four parts, the white sides in six.

Neil

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