Sumitomo insert identification

[jon hill 3Participant @jonhill3]

[jon hill 3Participant @jonhill3]

Can anyone identify this sumitomo carbide insert?

The insert is approximately 15mm cutting tip to tip on the longest edge. I have used it to cut brass, steel and stainless however I don't know for certain its intended cutting material.

If anyone can identify the part no, it would be much appreciated. The tool holder reference number is sclcr1212-32s.

[OldironParticipant @oldiron]

Probably something like a CCMT090204 but no idea on it's properties. But could be CNMG because of the deep chip breaker.  Is there a ref number on the side of the insert ?

regards

Edited By Oldiron on 13/09/2020 12:08:10

[jon hill 3Participant @jonhill3]

Hi Oldiron

Sadly there isn't any part no printed on the insert, but here is a close up of the cutter.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Looks to be the MU type chipbreaker, but you should be able to deduce the full code from this GU catalogue

https://www.sumitool.com/en/downloads/assets/mt-catalog/IN531.pdf

Bill

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

With the holder description indicating it is 12mm x 12mm and the tip being 15mm on the long corner to corner I'd go with C*MT 120402…. rather than 09 as it looks as long on one edge as the holder is square

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by jon hill 3 on 13/09/2020 11:42:36:…

The tool holder reference number is sclcr1212-32s.

Can you confirm the number Jon? There is no SCLCR1212-32S in this Sumitomo Catalogue I found online. Nor does Mr Google find it. There is a SCLCR1212-F09 for which Sumitomo list inserts: CCGT 060202 RF-X; CCMT 09T304 N-SU; and CCMT 120408 N-SU.

I find the numbers used to describe Carbide Inserts and their Holders hard to navigate! Thousands of different types optimised for almost every cutting operation and material imaginable. Unfortunately catalogues are aimed at Production Engineers with access to software selection tools and consultancy rather than 'Man in Shed' doing the best he can. Luckily, small workshops don't need anything like the full range of inserts. I tend to buy from the Hobby specialists because they sell general purpose holders taking common general purpose inserts and it keeps life simple. Buying from ebay opens up the possibility of getting hard to identify industrial surplus. Some older inserts and holders are impossible to buy new.

I don't recall seeing a simple guide to identifying inserts and holders. Easy enough to decode what an Insert reference means if the number is available; difficult to work back to the code from an unknown insert or holder. I don't know how to do it without taking a lot of measurements and slogging through the catalogues and this sort of web-page.

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Try this one for holders Dave

S= Screw to retain insert

C – C as in CCMT shape of insert

L = Orientation of insert

C = Insert clearance angle ( contary to what I said the other day) 7deg as in CCMT

R = Right hand

Etc

For Inserts page 390 and 391 of MSC virtual catalogue is easy to follow

 

Edited By JasonB on 13/09/2020 14:26:39

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

It is certainly single sided, and looks to me to be a CCMT12, the CCGT12 for aluminium would also be useful. The size is the inscribed circle diameter in mm, with this shape, just measure across the flats in mm.

This chart from the Carbide Depot is useful for identifying inserts:

http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-insert-d.htm

[jon hill 3Participant @jonhill3]

Edge to edge on the flats the cutter measures 9.52mm which may avoid some confusion.

thanks for the catalogue refs guys.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

That will make it an CCMT 09, just looked like it was about the same as the 12mm holder width.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

CCMT 09 it is then, you can get the cheap Chinese inserts readily which are pretty good quality now, and also the CCGT09 for aluminium which are good for stainless steel and for fine finishing cuts on steel. Only experiance will tell you what depth of cut and feed rates to use, these inserts have two edges only, unless you get hold of tools which use the obtuse angle for roughing.

Edited By old mart on 13/09/2020 17:47:58

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

There used to be a firm called Carter Precision Tools, run by a chap called Carter who was, I understand a gunmaker who sold Sumitomo titainium carbide tips as a sideline. He was also, I think, the man who demonstrated the exceptional finish the tips could achieve at ME shows, perhaps 30 years ago. He specialised in Ti200A tips and I bought some and got good results with them, unless damaged they seemed to last almost forever. Mr Carter retired some years ago and I have not been able to find another supplier of these tips. They are not listed on the Sumitomo website or catalogues and the website contact line does not seem interested. Anyone know anything about these tips and/ or a possible source of supply?

Rod

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

Hi Jon, in the early '90s, there was a chap called I R Rivers, trading as L B & S C R, in London SW12. He used to demonstrate Sumitomo tips and tooling at the Model Engineer Exhibition, and sold a small range, by mail order. Your holder is listed in his catalogue. He listed the following tips for it: CCGM 32XEFM (0.1mm tip radius), CCGM 320EFM (0.2mm tip radius), CCGM 321EFM (0.4mm tip radius), all in T12A grade carbide, a robust, general purpose grade, which worked exceptionally well – you could throw blue and smoking chips all over the workshop, working at what then seemed ridiculous feeds and surface speeds, and also take very light finishing cuts, all with excellent surface finish.

Ian Rivers faded from the scene, and Mr Carter appeared, I suspect for not very long, around the turn of the millenium(?).

I haven't looked at a Sumitomo catalogue for ages, but would not expect any of these holders or tips to be listed. I believe that Sumitomo's tips and holders, then in production, did not respect the ISO dimensional standards, and, by the late '90s, Sumitomo had fallen into line with the rest of the manufacturers, producing ISO-compliant tips and holders. Someone please correct me if this is wrong. This was bad news indeed for those of us who had invested in their tooling. Grrr!

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Looking for CCMT 09 on the unnamed auction site, there are sets of 12mm square tools all using this size of insert for extremely good prices, which include a box of ten inserts.

[ianjParticipant @ians]

Here is the order form for turning toola and tips from " Carter Precision Tools "

It's for ISO standard tool and tip I/D so not much help to the OP.

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

Many thanks to Kiwi Bloke for filling in the history of the Sumitomo Titanium carbide tips marketing, I had not realised that there were 2 separate firms involved. Also thanks to Ian J for the copy of the Carter order form which provides useful information on the types of tips available 20 years ago. I bought my holders and tips from Mr Carter rather than from Mr Rivers – so it seems ( per Ian J ) that mine are ISO standard sizes, so I am luckier than Kiwi Bloke. The original tips sold by Mr Carter are no longer listed.

It seems unlikely that the Titanium carbide technology has just disappeared, so is anyone making tips with similar performance characteristics now?

Rod

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