Suggestions for lathe-only projects?

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by DMB on 25/11/2020 23:04:00:

In my younger days and lack of knowledge and experience, followed Martin Evans' advice on using an endmill in the 3jaw to mill work on the vertical slide. (Not the current Editor of the same name. What's the chances of two editors of the same mag having the same names?) Well anyway, 3jaws useless at holding endmills, they just wind out of the chuck and cause a smash up. Vertical slide not rigid enough for serious work. Forget it.

I don't know about a Myford 7, but for both the Speed 10 I ran from 2000 to 2015 and the Warco WM250V I've been using since, that is simply not true. I've done lots of slot drilling, end milling and flycutting of all sorts in both machines.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

And to just complete this story of "lathe-only work" William (since I've suggested to you that a vertical slide is perfectly useable for small scale work).

Here is my set-up for tidying up two pairs of frames for a Gauge 3 (Bo-Bo) engine I was working on at the time – using my heavy Chinese vertical slide and an end mill (this time held in my ER32 chuck). The four frames are bolted together in this instance.

Note how the vertical slide hangs over the edge of the cross-slide (often required I find to give enough vertical travel) – and that the vertical 'swivel' function provided is therefore normally pretty useless. I later made a purpose 'adaptor' plate to replace the original (swivelling) base – that had four corner bolting points to the cross-slide and a socket and bolt-holes match for the vertical slide. This set-up then gives a pretty solid base for its use on the lathe.

Milling machines are very nice and can certainly make life much easier – but (if you are working in the smaller scales) it's not the end of the world if you don't have one.

Regards,

IanT

Edited By IanT on 27/11/2020 16:39:13

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by William Ayerst on 27/11/2020 15:13:39:

Interesting stuff! I guess buying the drill pad from Myford isn't a complete loss because I'll end up with an MT2 arbor to mount something like the above to, potentially?

I've seen a few hand drill presses with 2-speeds that look like they might fit the part. J…………..

To address both points, those drill presses do work OK, and of course used to be used before everyone had powered bench drills, (or even drill presses for hand electric drills.
I'm sure they aren't as accurate as a Pollard or Meddings for general use, but I got the impression you don't have any sort of a bench drill at all, so better than nothing and cheap if sourced with care. i.e. don't spend ages searching for one, but keep an eye out.
As mentioned, it can always be used to hold a tap vertically, and mine almost permanently has a countersink bit in it, to save swapping things on one of the bench drills. Probably only worth doing if you drop on one at the right price; I think I only paid a fiver, though it was many years ago.

re. The tailstock arbor thingy. There's much cheaper ways of buying a blank MT2 arbor, See ArcEurotrade as an example.
When I first wanted a couple of MT2 arbors, I made them myself with an offset top slide, and a bar in the 3 jaw. The finish wasn't brilliant, as the operator as well as the gib strip/dovetails was a bit dodgy.
When I needed some more, I'd already obtained a boring head, so used that in the tailstock, to provide an off-set centre if you see what I mean.
That allows you to turn a bar between centres with a taper on each end; cut the bar in half and finish up with a matched pair of blank arbors, (with a nicer finish having used power feed).
I do appreciate though that you were looking for projects that didn't involve building more tooling.

Bill

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

quick thought while I parse those responses – I've got a battery-driven Makita – would it be better to just get one of those bench-drill brackets for it rather than a hand drill?

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I've been referring to an electric hand-drill mounted in a simple drill stand William.

I have two (mains) Bosch drills that have lasted many years with no problems. I also have an old Wolf drill stand that let's me use them to drill 'vertically' when I'm away from my 'workshop' drills. They are noisy (and reliable) but will do the job when required.

So use whatever drill you have – in a "stand" (it's better than using it freehand) when you need to do so – until you can afford something better. It might not always be ideal – but it will serve most needs in the short term.

IanT

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

Is it Mogens Kilde in the magazines who does amazing things will a small-looking lathe? Great inspiration for the mill- challenged. A lot of the early loco designs assumed only a lathe, vertical slide and drilling machine.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Secondhand drill presses/pillar drills are so common and so cheap you are mad if you don't buy one. I guess you might have to wait until lockdowns etc ease off though. I have bought secondhand small drill presses at garage sales for $25 — 12 quid to you. They are perfect size for small model work. Its really not worth faffing about with lathe tailstock pads or pistol drill stands and the like at that price. Take a look on eBay or Gum Tree etc and you might be surprised too.

A 6" bench grinder for sharpening drills and lathe tools is pretty much essential too and available used for similar prices.

You can always make your own veritical slide for milling too. I think there is an article on this site somewhere about it. Certainly has been in ME over the years.

Edited By Hopper on 28/11/2020 06:23:17

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

So I've bought the tools and materials to make the simple oscillating lathe-only engine linked by David George – I think the only challenge will be drilling the engine frame holes true…

I can't find ANY affordable second hand drill presses within about 50mi of my location either manual or electric, but I'll keep a look out. Additionally, it seems the Myford fixed vertical slides are going for reasonable prices, but relatively rare (i.e. now there's only one listed on eBay – for £150 when the going price seems to be about £75-90) so I'll keep an eye out for that too.

With regard to vices and angle plates, do I need a specific size or configuration, or can I assume that it'll bold to a myford/RDG fixed vertical slide and/or the ML7 cross-slide? Right now I've not got any faceplate/slide clamping equipment, just got the t-nuts that come with the topslide. It seems a bit of a minefield!

Edited By William Ayerst on 28/11/2020 11:45:51

[Mike HurleyParticipant @mikehurley60381]

Someone correct me if i'm wrong but didn't they always used to say that the lathe was the only machine on which you could make another lathe, implying that all machine operations you ever need could be accomplished (apart from casting I suppose) on one. Probably not quite so true these days with some of those whizzo CNC machining centers!

But yes, you can manage pretty well anything just with a lathe, sometimes takes a bit of head scratching and lateral thinking though.

What about hot-air engines? From dead simple to quite advanced, these can be a good 'project' usually not involving complex castings etc, but will give you good practice with precision fitting which will hold in good stead for your eventual loco-building goal. Plenty of books / stuff on the web for more info.

Good look – and enjoy whatever projects you decide on. Regards Mike

[IanTParticipant @iant]

"Myford" accessories tend to come with a higher price tag William – with perfectly usable alternatives that are often a third to half the price. The difference is often just the spacing of the mounting holes. So "Non-Myford" parts will usually either need an adaptor made for them or some new holes drilled (or enlarged) to match the machine you are mounting them on.

Of course, if you can find a well priced accessory that will directly fit your Myford slots – then go for it. I just looked for "Myford" vertical slides – and found this one on eBay for £77 (inc postage) which sounds like it could be a good deal. (usual caveats!)

Myford Vertical Slide

It doesn't have any "swivel" but as you may have gathered, I prefer a rock-solid slide to the "flexibility" offered by the swivelling versions. I've never owned one but I have sometimes wondered if they are why some folk are adverse to using vertical slides. There's usually a way to mount things (at angular settings) when you need to, be that by packing or some other form of fixture.

Regards,

IanT

PS You will need clamps, bolts and T-nuts. You can buy clamping sets (but if so get a smaller set first) or just make them yourself. Simple clamps can be faced and drilled in your 4-jaw – but T-Nuts are cheaper to buy than make. I use mostly (6mm I think) Chinese metric ones on my Myford S7 that I've "thinned" a little to fit the slot. Myford slots are not very robust so you do need to be careful with them but that's another story.

Edited By IanT on 28/11/2020 13:06:50

[Mike HurleyParticipant @mikehurley60381]

Someone correct me if i'm wrong but didn't they always used to say that the lathe was the only machine on which you could make another lathe, implying that all machine operations you ever need could be accomplished (apart from casting I suppose) on one. Probably not quite so true these days with some of those whizzo CNC machining centers!

But yes, you can manage pretty well anything just with a lathe, sometimes takes a bit of head scratching and lateral thinking though.

What about hot-air (Stirling cycle) engines? From dead simple to quite advanced, these can be a good 'project' often not involving complex castings etc, but will give you good practice with precision machining & fitting which will hold in good stead for your eventual loco-building goal. Plenty of books / free stuff on the web for more info.

Good look – and enjoy whatever projects you decide on. Regards Mike

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

That engine David linked is mainly turned cylinders and a bit if un-machined flat bar. A good one to start with.

If you have an independent 4 jaw chuck, that is the same as using a milling attachment as far as squaring parts is concerned (size of parts would be a limited to the chuck jaw opening).

Most lathes cut a slightly concave surface when facing – no different, really, to when using a milling attachment – so some slight adjustment may be needed for some surfaces which need to be perfectly flat.

The number of lathe-only projects is vastly increased once you master squaring workpieces on the lathe without using a milling attachment. The milling attachment then increase your options by several fold.

Machining flat surfaces on ‘flat’ bar is fairly easy, within the limits of the 4 jaw chuck. Converting round bar to flat is likewise possible. Some you tube videos omit the use of a couple of parallels, to get the rear faces, of such machining, parallel to the chuck face.

Cold rolled steel is often well dimensioned but will almost certainly bend with machining on one side; hot rolled is cheaper and does not bend when machined. Try it out. You may be surprised at the extra opportunities after doing a few ‘round-bar-only’ jobs.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Uses of a vertical swivel slide:

Cutting a mating inside radius on a ring-gear reinforce for a Hypocycloidal engine:-

Drilling a wing mirror support casting for a classic car at a funny angle:

So long as I'm not greedy on depth of cut or workpiece size, there's quite a lot of flexibility of use the thing gives, and it's not that lacking in solidity.

Don't knock 'em till you've tried 'em.

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

I spent a bit of time in the workshop and made myself a T-bolt from an M8-coach bolt with the mushroom head turned down with two flats, and the top flattened out – it's given me the confidence that I can at least do that bit if I get a slide or a vice which doesn't have nuts or bolts included.

Essentially, there is a double swivel + vice on eBay for only a few pounds more than a non-Myford non-swivelling slide and vice.  I'd rather buy once than buy something not up to par and then have to do it again…

Edited By William Ayerst on 28/11/2020 15:33:55

[Andy_GParticipant @andy_g]

I'd honestly buy a cheap pillar drill before the milling slide.

This was made just using a lathe and a cheap pillar drill. I could have done without the pillar drill, but wouldn't want to. (Apologies for blowing my own trumpet, but one can make an awful lot of things on a lathe, and many, many people have – one is only limited by one's imagination.)

 

 

(OK, I bought the gears and the sparkplug!)

 

Edited By Andy Gray 3 on 28/11/2020 18:21:27

Edited By Andy Gray 3 on 28/11/2020 18:22:32

Edited By Andy Gray 3 on 28/11/2020 18:24:41

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by William Ayerst on 28/11/2020 15:33:20:

I spent a bit of time in the workshop and made myself a T-bolt from an M8-coach bolt with the mushroom head turned down with two flats, and the top flattened out – it's given me the confidence that I can at least do that bit if I get a slide or a vice which doesn't have nuts or bolts included.

A few T-nuts can be made easily and quickly with a hacksaw and file. If you want more than that, then turn as many top-hats as you need and file on the flats for the bigger slot.

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

Andy, beautiful work! Right now, I'm thinking of moving home, so the double-benefit of a milling slide is that has milling and drilling utility (albeit not as great as a dedicated machine for either) but also importantly fits in a shoe-box when I pack up my workshop, instead of a crate. It's definitely on my watch-list, though – If I do find a cheap pillar drill, I will get one.

Nicholas, I appreciate it's probably extremely rote but I'm working from first-principles in this case – I had no idea if I could do it!

Angle plates on the ML7

Am I going to be fine with a simple right-angled plate with some milled oval holes, or is something more like the four-sided RDG plate with the vee groove, etc. ? I assume the latter but I don't have an extended cross-slide and there are no drawings or comments to establish what might be compatible with what.

What to clamp with?

Should I expect to use the same studding for clamping work as I do for my t-nuts? The T-nut slots look to be spot on 3/8" (rather than clearance for 3/8&quot, and the t-nuts and bolts seem to be 1/4" BSF – I can't find clamping 'kits' in either size. How much of a bad idea would it be to just use 5/16" BSF bolts? They appear to have the correct distance across flats to fit into the T-slots on the lathe, and appear to be substantial enough to also clamp work.

Vice and Slide

I've sorted out a vice and a slide, time will tell whether it is the correct combination. I did go for Myford – my logic is that if it turns out to be duff then I can stick it back on eBay and lose only the commission!

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

If you need to you can make all the clamping parts you will need. They don't have to be as pretty as the bought ones to work, and even if you have a set you will often find that you need a custom length of stud for something. Threaded rod is fine for these. Plenty of fine work has been done with just the lathe and vertical slide. A better chuck for the milling cutters is good if you can manage it, for instance an ER series chuck that either screws onto the mandrel nose or has a drawbar through the mandrel. If money is tight you don't need the full set of colletts, only the ones needed for milling cutters that you actually have.

Don't overlook what you can do with hand tools if all else fails. Tubal Cain did a series on machining one of the Stuart engines entirely with hand tools some years back. He bored the cylinder with a brace and bit. That was a bit of a tour de force just to prove that it could be done, most of us would at least use whatever machines we have. But you can do the odd bit with the hacksaw and file if you have to.

John

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

John, fair enough – maybe I'll just sit on my haunches and see how the vertical slide works for now, now that I have it, and pull out the studding as and when required.

Ian T (I think) mentioned about using a faceplate-mounted ER32 Collet chuck and I'm with you there – machining faceplates and whatnot is a whole 'nother thing to learn. I am hoping that the very modest milling and drilling required for the oscillating engine linked prevously will be fine using what I have (on the way) now. Speaking of which – I assume best to use the 3-jaw for milling and the jacobs chuck for drilling, in the headstock?

[Andy_GParticipant @andy_g]

Thank you

Posted by William Ayerst on 28/11/2020 20:59:10:

I assume best to use the 3-jaw for milling and the jacobs chuck for drilling, in the headstock?

With a little bit more expenditure you could get a finger collet to hold milling cutters in the headstock spindle (you would need to make a drawbar – e.g. a long bolt + collar), I guess a 6mm and/or a 10mm collet (<£10 each) could cover quite a range of milling cutters.

FWIW, In the limited amount of milling I have done on my lathe (not Myford) I find the cutters run more smoothly in a collet than in a chuck and it's easier to see what you're doing.

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

I have never come across a commercial clamping set suitable for a Myford. Usually Tee bolts and nuts are available from mytholmroyd, but phone to confirm dimensions before parting with your money.

Not generally considered good practice to use ordinary reversed bolts as Tee bolts due to to small head size exerting a high point load and risking damage to the slot – but needs must if there is no alternative, just be careful you are clamping something solid over the top to protect the slot. Sawing up your own Tee nuts is a good discipline as is fabricating some Tee bolts

Myford x-slide tee nuts are pretty small, so that could be your first milling job to test the new slide, traditionally tapped 5/16 F but M8 would do as well if you are standardising on that studding.

Don't recommend using the 3 jaw to hold a milling cuter, too easy for the cutter to be dragged out of the jaws unless it is quite small. If you can't manage an ER collet chuck, then I believe ARC or the like can provide No.2MT collets in say M10 and M6 (or whatever to suit the mills you have available). M10 studding and a nut and washer will do for the drawbar.

Andy got there first with the finger collets!!!

 

Edited By Martin of Wick on 28/11/2020 21:30:11

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

William,

I don’t think anyone has mentioned it yet .. but I would highly recommend that you get a copy of ‘Milling in the Lathe’ by Edgar T. Westbury

Amazon link for identification purposes only: **LINK**

One of the most useful little books on the subject that I have ever seen

I bought mine new, in the early 1970s

MichaelG.

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

I have 'Milling in the Lathe' on its way, and have just recieved 'Building Simple Model Steam Engines' – thank you. I'm going to read through before applying tool to metal for the oscillating engine as I quite like the look of the horizontal one complete with boiler – but we're getting ahead of ourselves. Either way, I've definitely got my next project lined up!

No milling is required for the stationary oscillating steam engine (nor I gather, the Elizabeth horizontal engine), the vertical slide is just going to be for precision drilling – so I have a little time before I need to figure out the milling component.

It seems that RDG do a backplate, chuck and set of collets so maybe that's a shout? £140 all-in doesn't seem too bad? (have I gone made, or has just the price of this hobby become completely disconnected from reality…). I would much rather get a used, german oro british set – but may bbe more challenging.

Edited By William Ayerst on 29/11/2020 10:36:16

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by William Ayerst on 29/11/2020 10:35:47:

………….

It seems that RDG do a backplate, chuck and set of collets so maybe that's a shout? £140 all-in doesn't seem too bad? (have I gone made, or has just the price of this hobby become completely disconnected from reality…). I would much rather get a used, german oro british set – but may bbe more challenging.

Edited By William Ayerst on 29/11/2020 10:36:16

I can't advise you whether to get a collet chuck or not, as that's down to your preference and budget.
I have an ER25 setup, rather than ER32, but that's just down to the various bits I picked up second hand over the years; If I were starting from scratch, I might go for the larger capacity of the ER32.

Unless you plan to use it with a rotary table, and I'm guessing you don't for the time being, I'd personally go for the two piece ER chuck which fits directly to the Myford nose spindle, rather than the faceplate version.
There is a photo of mine on Page 2 of this thread.
It's smaller and allows one to get tools or workpieces closer; I do have an MT2 ER25 as well, but this isn't as rigid, arguably isn't as accurate, and also won't permit longer through workpieces, such as bar-stock.
I use it for holding milling cutters in the Centec V mill.

You do have to fit the threaded part to the chuck, but that's easy enough provided you think about it.
Screw the threaded part onto the lathe spindle and machine the register to fit the part that actually holds the collets.
Mine came second hand pre-assembled, from Newark Autojumble; the previous owner had turned the chuck to fit the threaded part, rather than vice versa. I couldn't work out why it was a good 20 thou out of concentric.

Also consider getting a ball bearing closing nut, rather than a plain one; it really does make a difference.

Bill

Edited By peak4 on 29/11/2020 12:45:43

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

Collets

What about the the myford MT2 collets and collet retaining ring? Then it's only £20ish for the ring and I can buy just a 1/4" collet initially, but the upfront cost is relatively low (and I'm not sending all my monies to imperial China)

Engine Choice

I'm reading Tubal Cain's "Building Simple Model Steam Engines" and I am heartened by his words (as was described earlier in this thread) about making do with fewer expensive tools. I like the look of his horizontal-boilered Elizabeth but I am struck by how small it is a 1/4" bore against the 1/2" of the 'Simple Oscillating Engine' (both have the same 5/16" stroke).

He notes that bit of brass tube with a port block soldered benefits from heating up quickly compared to the hunk of brass to it needs much less steam to heat it to stop it priming, but it really does look so much smaller.

It would be nice to build a boiler which he details (44 sq. inch capacity with a 3-1/2" x 1/2" solid fuel burner) too. Will 15lbs of steam pressure from this boiler be enough for the larger engine, eventually?

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