Stuck Morse Taper in Warco Major 3024YZ

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Derek Lane on 17/08/2022 11:49:52:

You will be surprised at what I have had to do in the plant hire business after some idiotic builder has their hands on the machines.

You would certainly see it all in that job! Can't imagine.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Matthew Furseman on 16/08/2022 21:37:13:

Posted by Pete Rimmer on 16/08/2022 21:28:02:

Loosen the drawbar and start cutting it'll soon come loose then

Err, is that safe?

Where do you expect it to go? The only was out is down into the 'work' when it will loose drive and absolutely ruin a piece of old scrap.

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

Use the collet holder nut to apply force on tubular packing between nut and spindle nose. Colin

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

If you can get some, dip the end of the collet holder in a polystyrene cup full of liquid nitrogen. I used to get it from a local frozen food supplier…..

Robert G8RPI.

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

Put a piece of mdf or similar dense material on table. Bring the spindle housing down till the spindle nose sits on a suitable piece of metal, don’t lock the spindle housing. No with either the draw bar or a larger diameter piece of metal sitting on the end of the taper, hit it until it frees. What you don’t want to do is apply a heavy blow without supporting the spindle nose. Doing it this way no or very little force will affect the spindle bearings.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 17/08/2022 08:33:43:

Hi, I'd go with Peak4's wedges idea myself and yes use two with the same taper, you can always give the drawbar a clout once you have the wedges locked together.

Regards Nick.

+ 1 more for the wedges. Never failed me yet. Do hang the wedges together for storage and usage – one will likely fly away when the taper comes loose (and it saves searching for the second, when needing them).

Any items of tooling I make are made such that wedges can be inserted in the gap. I have both thin and thicker pairs of wedges for. my 2MT tapers.

Hitting anything, with bearings that can absorb the impact energy pulse, with a hard hammer is simply asking for brinelled bearings – only use a soft mallet, or support as per whoever suggested it to avoid transferring energy to the bearings.

[Swarf, Mostly!Participant @swarfmostly]

Good afternoon, Matthew,

I just want to make a plea that, when you do solve your problem (soon, I hope ), you will tell us and advise just which method eventually brought success.

Best regards,

Swarf, Mostly!

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

When you have the wedges in position and applying pressure also heat the exposed housing with a paint stripper while shielding the collet. This both softens the oil/varnish and expands the joint. Yes the insert also heats up but teh lag can be enough as the temperature difference when assembled, if that was part of the problem, would only be a few degrees.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Got a tangless chuck stuck solid in my lathe tailstock put there by the previous owner, took the chuck and tailstock slide and placed it in the freezer, left it for a couple of days and the took it out and quickly heated the sleeve, one tap up the middle of the sleeve had the chuck removed..

Martin P

[HowiParticipant @howi]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 17/08/2022 12:57:51:

If you can get some, dip the end of the collet holder in a polystyrene cup full of liquid nitrogen. I used to get it from a local frozen food supplier…..

Robert G8RPI.

Now! where DID I put that cup of liquid nitrogen, it's around here somewhere……..

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Take drawbar out, pour very hot oil down the middle, fit drawbar, screw in quickly and hit ! Noel.

[Anonymous]

Posted by noel shelley on 17/08/2022 16:27:29:

Take drawbar out, pour very hot oil down the middle, fit drawbar, screw in quickly and hit ! Noel.

Don't see what that will do. If the taper is a good fit (which it obviously is) it would have to be released before the oil could get to it.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

At a guess it expands the spindle.

regards Martin

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Personally I would fit a cylindrical piece of steel to the chuck and run up against a bit of brass in the machine vice to exert a side force. Eventually the taper will work loose. If the draw bar is still in place but loose nothing will be damaged.

regards Martin

[Matthew FursemanParticipant @matthewfurseman25697]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 17/08/2022 12:57:51:

If you can get some, dip the end of the collet holder in a polystyrene cup full of liquid nitrogen. I used to get it from a local frozen food supplier…..

Robert G8RPI.

As it happens my workplace does have (a lot) of liquid nitrogen. I'm not sure how happy they'd be lending me a dewar though!

[Matthew FursemanParticipant @matthewfurseman25697]

Posted by colin hawes on 17/08/2022 12:41:39:

Use the collet holder nut to apply force on tubular packing between nut and spindle nose. Colin

I gave this a go, I found an odd backplate that came with a lathe that happend to have the right ID and screwed it up above the collet nut with a couple of milling clamps as spacers against the spindle. I got it pretty tight but had to hold the belt drive on the top of the spindle to stop it rotating so this limited how much force I could put into it. No joy unfortunately.

[Matthew FursemanParticipant @matthewfurseman25697]

Posted by Swarf, Mostly! on 17/08/2022 13:47:50:

Good afternoon, Matthew,

I just want to make a plea that, when you do solve your problem (soon, I hope ), you will tell us and advise just which method eventually brought success.

Best regards,

Swarf, Mostly!

Thank you, I shall, I'm grateful and a bit overwhelmed by the explosion of responses.No luck this evening,, tried drawing it out with the collet nut. I haven't run the machine yet so got about giving that a go before rigging up some wobbly milling setup. Plugged it in, pushed 'forward', and nothing. It turned out that there's a post, which I think is meant to hold a guard, which was interlocked. I didn't get the guard so bypassed it and now it's working but it's a bit late to continue exploring. Fortunately my electrical knowledge exceeds my mechanical.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Matthew Furseman on 17/08/2022 21:01:40:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 17/08/2022 12:57:51:

If you can get some, dip the end of the collet holder in a polystyrene cup full of liquid nitrogen. I used to get it from a local frozen food supplier…..

Robert G8RPI.

As it happens my workplace does have (a lot) of liquid nitrogen. I'm not sure how happy they'd be lending me a dewar though!

I use a cheap stainless steel "thermos" Just replace the stopper with a foam plug including a vent hole.

Robert G8RPI.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I certainly hope that people considering buying a new mill read this thread right through before choosing a Morse Taper spindle. These threads repeat several times every year.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by old mart on 18/08/2022 20:53:35:

I certainly hope that people considering buying a new mill read this thread right through before choosing a Morse Taper spindle. These threads repeat several times every year.

Nothing wrong with a morse taper. The user just needs to be aware of the operational requirements and actually follow them. There have been no stuck tapers in my workshop – except when I put a cold taper into the warm spindle on my lathe. No real problems, otherwise, and that one was extracted quite easily with a little thinking outside the box, as I recall. The main problem at the time was that it was a reducing sleeve with nowhere to use wedges.

My wedges are now linked as pairs – and easily found hanging on a hook on the wall.

That these threads repeat several times every year just shows that some do not read these threads, or just have no idea/experience of operating machinery. Morse tapers have been around for far longer than the R8, which old mart clearly prefers – or maybe he doesn’t know how to simply and safely remove morse tapers?🙂

Question: Does anyone know of a hobby lathe with other than a Morse taper, if provided with a centring option in the spindle? My lathe has one (MT4) and has had it for over 50 years.🙂

[oldveloParticipant @oldvelo]

Look for any signs of heat discoloured metal on the morse taper socket.

By the amount of force used already it is possible that the mill has had the cutter stop and the spindle spin on the morse taper long enough to get red hot and when stopped has welded them solid.

More likely the pervious owner used big long spanner to winch up the drawbar way too tight.

Insert the morse taper of the tool half way into the socket then slap it firmly home.

Advice I was taught Use the correct size spanner on the drawbar,

Hold the spanner in your fingers put your thumb on the spanner at the centre line of the spindle.

The amount of torque applied with the fingers is enough to hold the drawbar firm.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by not done it yet on 18/08/2022 21:37:17:

Posted by old mart on 18/08/2022 20:53:35:

Nothing wrong with a morse taper. The user just needs to be aware of the operational requirements and actually follow them. There have been no stuck tapers in my workshop – except when I put a cold taper into the warm spindle on my lathe. No real problems, otherwise, and that one was extracted quite easily with a little thinking outside the box, as I recall. The main problem at the time was that it was a reducing sleeve with nowhere to use wedges.

My wedges are now linked as pairs – and easily found hanging on a hook on the wall.

T

Totally agree, never had any issues with them apart from the one I posted because the previous owner had put a tangless sleeve in the tailstock.

Martin P

[Anonymous]

Posted by not done it yet on 18/08/2022 21:37:17:

…Morse tapers have been around for far longer than the R8…

The R8 taper was developed for milling machines and is self-releasing, the Morse taper wasn't, and isn't.

Andrew

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 19/08/2022 10:22:29:

Posted by not done it yet on 18/08/2022 21:37:17:

…Morse tapers have been around for far longer than the R8…

The R8 taper was developed for milling machines and is self-releasing, the Morse taper wasn't, and isn't.

Andrew

I’m guessing R8 wasn’t around when my Centec 2B was manufactured. I don’t see many old mills with an R8. Mills have been around far longer than R8, so when were these fittings introduced?

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by not done it yet on 19/08/2022 11:46:56:

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 19/08/2022 10:22:29:

Posted by not done it yet on 18/08/2022 21:37:17:

…Morse tapers have been around for far longer than the R8…

The R8 taper was developed for milling machines and is self-releasing, the Morse taper wasn't, and isn't.

Andrew

I’m guessing R8 wasn’t around when my Centec 2B was manufactured. I don’t see many old mills with an R8. Mills have been around far longer than R8, so when were these fittings introduced?

R8 was a Bridgeport thing originally. So probably started when they did about WW2 era. Then spread through the ubiquitous clones to the general population.

[Author]

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