Stuart ‘Victoria’ : a beginners tale..

[Peter Wood 5Participant @peterwood5]

Steve

A great idea for setting an item parallel. I must make one. However I don't understand how you take a skim off the backstop. Don't the chuck jaws get in the way?

Sorry if I am missing the obvious and it is a daft question.

Peter

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

Peter Either remove chuck jaws or chuck and hold the arbor with a draw bar

Roy

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Thanks Roy. I forgot the drawbar. It's just a piece off the 12mm threaded rod I used for the backstop.

Peter – Bear in mind this is for holding thin items, so the backstop is typically not that far into the jaws and can be "got at", obviously being careful with the jaws.

If you look at the example piece in my original photo, I drilled, bored and cut the central groove all in one setup. I think that would have been quite difficult to achieve without some form of backstop to prevent the workpiece moving in the jaws.

Steve

Happy New Year! (ie one that allows much productive time in the workshop ! )

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Allan, with a 7" bar you will be able to make it as you intend and if you set the part correctly within the 7" length won't be left with a centre drill hole in the end.

I would do all the drilling, reaming and milling before you start turning and that includes the slot for the forked end but don't make it an open slot at this stage, leave some metal at the end to take the ctr drill.

If you are not sure of the procedure to get the fishbellied profile, just ask

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Hi Jason

Brilliant thanks for that, I'll go about it as you suggest and come back to ask about the turning later…

Cheers

Allan.

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Hi Allan,

I n my archive:

**LINK**

there is sequence of photo's showing how I made the conrod for the Victoria –

Steve

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Hi Steve

Thats really useful thanks, if I get halfway as nice as that I'll be more than happy! I see you have drilled two holes for the fork, that seems like a good idea..

I'm just about to go and make a start…

Cheers.

Allan.

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

The Con Rod 1. (Mild Steel)

A quick update – sorry I'm back looking for advice / comments already! I was in, failed miserably and out of the worship so quickly today, the kettle had barely boiled…

Although I have gained some more valuable experience this morning, unfortunately of the bad kind though, but all part of the learning process – I suspect mostly down to me somehow and part my budget drills – again.

I've been having trouble drilling in steel from the beginning and this bar for the Con Rod is by far the biggest lump of steel I have tried to work with. The first attempt at drilling the through hole at the fork end on the Bench Drill and the drill bit again seemed to not want to know (I made sure everything was all clamped as tight as it would go this time) and then the bit snapped again. This was with a 2mm and then exactly the same thing happened again with a 2.5mm bit – the bench drill at its max speed of 2,500 rpm., both bits part of my 'budget' set and new. The drill itself was making a horrible rattling noise, even with the centre drill, not the motor but the table it seemed. So I thought I would try it on the mill – I love the mill I have it seems to be an excellent bit of kit – but the drill bit would not move through at all. This was again one of the budget set and again unused. Next try was with one of the 'individual' bits I had bought, this time it was lovely and smooth no vibration and the drill started to move through the steel but, within maybe 2 or 3 seconds, no more than that, the drill had gone bright red and melted in half and a 'red bubble' had momentarily appeared at the hole for a second, it was that hot, that quickly – ie so not snapped this time, see photo. Checking back there was no mention of it being HSS so just a 'standard' type I assume. The mill was running at close to 2000 rpm. It seems at the very least obvious now that the budget set of drill bits are not much use for anything. Does anyone have any tips where to buy good quality bits on line at a good price or advise what I should be using? I'm assuming they should be at least HSS steel or even better? Can anybody see if it was me at fault? The other thing to mention is that although I have had one 'budget bit' snap on the Lathe they have generally been ok then for some reason, although I have had a feeling some of them were not sharp even at first use – been drilling at about 700 rpm on the Lathe with the small bits. Any suggestions would be welcome – don't be stupid and buy cheap drills might seem appropriate! But I thought I would ask in case I am out with the drilling speeds or something?

The Con Rod drill bit failure.

So I'm hoping for a better outcome when I try again with some better quality drill bits..

Buying cheap drills seems to have been a big mistake in my original setup and definitely something to avoid in the future, even allowing for my bad technique they've definitely not helped I think…. ( Anyone like me just starting out may want to take note..)

Regards

Allan.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I would say 2mm is a bit on the small side to be starting off with, for the 3/8" ones I would spot drill, then 1/4 at about 1000rpm and finally open upto 3/8" at about 4-500rpm, all with a dab of soluable oil applied with a brush.

For the 1/8 hole I would spot , drill just under size and then ream, 1000rpm for the drills and 50rpm for the reamer

You should also back the drill bit out to clear any swarf, the smaller the dril the more often its required, almost once every diameter on the 1/8 and more so below that.

Have a look at MSC when they have Dormers on special offer I like the A002 jobber length and A022 Stub length. There is a link to the discount flyers on the right. The Guhring and Hertel ones are fine as well.

The best thing about the cheap drill sets is you get a box to start filling will decent ones.

A decent bit should allow you to do a lot without having to even think about resharpening, this 1/4" bit was not new, drillea all the holes in this 1" thick steel and a lot more afterwards before it needed touching

J

Edited By JasonB on 02/01/2014 16:41:53

[Anonymous]

Allan: I'd agree with Jason, a bit fast on the rpm for HSS steel drills. Another thing to bear in mind is that twist drills are quite happy with decent feedrates, several thou per edge per revolution. Bigger ones you probably won't be able to feed fast enough. All of my basic small (under 1/2" ) drill sets are Dormer.

You seem to have learnt the lesson about cutting tools, but my view on buying cutting tools is that there are two rules:

1. Never buy cheap cutting tools, however much of a 'bargain' they seem to be – they're a waste of money

2. See rule 1

Regards,

Andrew

Edited By JasonB on 02/01/2014 17:30:21

[Peter TuckerParticipant @petertucker86088]

Hi Allan,

I would say you have work hardened the steel with the first drill bit and aggravated it with the second, my suggestion would be to turn the work over and drill from the other side with a larger sharp bit using plenty of cutting fluid, a good strong feed, and not so many revs.

Good luck.

Peter.

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Thanks Jason, Andrew and Peter, all very interesting. It's a bit of an eye opener for me looking at the price and quality variations for drill bits – I had no idea or even given any thought to it – until this last week or so when my existing bits have brought me to a complete stop on two separate parts now. My fault of course for buying them – but I can't help but wonder at some of the tat available to buy in this country these days, with seemingly no comebacks….

Jason. MSC looks like a great place to buy from and with lots of choice, also its really good to have some figures to use as a guide when drilling etc, that is such a big help. I'll get an order in to MSC…..

(Hope by putting all this on here it may at least prevent some others making the same mistake..)

Cheers

Allan.

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Day 44.

The Wristpin. (Stainless Steel)

Been waiting on some new drill bits to arrive – found I couldn't order from MSC as there was some technical fault with online ordering on the day so have ordered some Cobalt bits from UK Drills, due here tomorrow. I've lost all confidence with the ones I have to be able to carry on until the new ones arrive.. I will though try MSC again next time…

Meantime and just for completeness really the details of the 'Wristpin', which I've just done – it goes through the Crossheads (yet to do), that sit between the Bar Guides. This must be the simplest part to do of the whole project but as I suspect that it will be mainly beginners like myself who will be likely to read any of this, I know its nice to see at least one bit on the overall drawing that really is straightforward to do – simply a 1/8 inch bar needing to be cut and faced to length (1 & 7/8 inch) in the Lathe (or at least that's what I did)…

The Wristpin Drawing.

Checking that the Wristpin final faced off length of 1 & 7/8 inch is correct.

Regards

Allan.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

That looks such a wrong way to measure a bit of bar! I can't think of any practical reason why not (as long as it is more or less vertical any error will be minute). But it sure looks wrong!

Neil

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Hi Neil and Allan,

It would be a lot better practice and more accurate to ensure the pin is at 90 degrees in x and y by resting the pin in a V block or against adjacent faces of two 1-2-3 blocks or other known-square stock, for measurement.

Zeroing the height gauge anvil on the table before measurement is critical of course to accurate measuring.

A clean surface table is essential before any measuring work is done on it.

Just food for thought.

As to the twist drill problem Allan, twist drill quality varies widely as you found out. Good quality name brand ground HSS drills are a joy, cheapies can be a misery. Same thing with buying taps and dies -hint hint note note….

Also, pay attention to speed when drilling – small drills work better turned fast. When buying drills ask for a recommended speed chart. You don't need to match the chart speed exactly, but somewhere near it, for best results. You will be shocked how fast the manufacturers intend very small drills to be turned!

A drop of good quality tapping oil when drilling often makes a world of difference. Rapid Tap is a good brand, but your drill supplier can probably recommend one. Just get a small tin of oil (you will likely never use a gallon or even a quart) and drip it on the drill from the can nozzle a drop at a time, or use a small brush. JUST A LITTLE OIL is all you need. Pull the drill out to clear the chips frequently and add a drop of oil when the drill goes back in.

JD

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Hi Jeff and Neil.

Thanks very much both of you, I had almost thought not to bother putting up the Wristpin details as there was not much involved or would be of interest to anyone – it just goes to show and I'm glad I did now…

Picking up Tips / Good Practice like this on here is great and increases enjoyment of the whole thing in knowing the right methods.

and I'll be using a V-Block for such things in future..

Regards

Allan.

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

Alan For what that pin does It would be good enough to measure the length with a rule Keep it simple

Roy

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Hi Allan

For what its worth; check the secondary clearance on your drills, I have found with some of mine, especially the smaller ones, that the secondary clearance is actually higher than the cutting edge (in effect non existent… typical of drills from India / China) therefore you are trying to cut on the trailing edge rather than the cutting lip & all you are doing is friction welding (trying to) the drill hence the molten tip.

I check all mine with a loupe & can still manage to freehand grind a secondary clearance (even at my age   on most of the smaller ones… down to about 3mm, after that I try to stone a clearance angle with a diamond lap… otherwise I bin it, as long as you can get some clearance back from the cutting edge.. about 8 – 10 * will suffice then you should get some cutting action, even using a Dremel type tool with a thin disc would help.

I'm like you, & I'm sure a lot more members, where finances are restrictive, trying to make the most of our shekels, but at the end of the day the old adage creeps in … penny wise pound foolish! so as others do I replace with decent HSS when needed.

Always use cutting fluid as well on smaller drills,.. (on all drilling effectively,)  Rocol, RTD etc. (usual disc' ) but if you have nothing else then Hydraulic / light engine oil / WD 40 (or similar from the pound shop), if push comes to shove use light cooking oil mixed with a dash of white spirits (sounds like a recipe   ) will suffice, as long as you get lubrication/coolant to the job. There are plenty of drilling ref charts around as far as speeds needed for small stuff. I assume that it's ordinary MS that was provided & not stainless in which case it has work hardened so it's a different kettle of fish…

Hope my two penn'orth helps solve your quandary.

Regards

George.

 

Edited By mechman48 on 07/01/2014 13:10:54

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Hi Roy.

Thanks, you are right of course, I do take the point. I must admit though that I find it enjoyable trying to get things as close to the drawing spec as I can, not always possible to say the least at my stage but very satisfactory when actually managing to get things spot on, something of a little victory and very good for morale! Also good practice at the moment for when accuracy is needed – I can see though its maybe a pointless exercise sometimes – its good to know when spot on accuracy is not essential, hopefully this will come with more experience..

Hi George.

Thats all very interesting, thanks, been a bit frustrating today as I have time to be in the workshop and my new drill bits not arrived, well not yet anyway – I'll go and take a look at my existing ones with a glass now and see what they look like! It would be good to be able to recognise a dud one….

You make the same point as Jeff and Jason in using oil when drilling, something I've been doing on the Lathe but will also do in future now when using the drill.

Cheers

Allan.

[DullnoteParticipant @dullnote]

Hi Allan thanks for the post, I used to have a small workshop, years ago before family, then never had time or money, just completed building my own house, at started to set up my workshop, with my old equipment ( never had the heart to sell it) even when times got hard, now glad I held on when you see today's prices.

To the point your article has inspired me to get a move on and get the workshop up and running, then think what I will build, started a cannon years ago told my son he would get this when he was 21 he was only 5 at the time, he is now 23 and still does not have the cannon, think this should be high up on the list.

problem is I am not very good, used to build model wooden boats from scratch, always wanted to work in metal, find it more of a challenge but that's the fun, glad to here other make same mistakes as me, sometimes you read article and everything is great nothing goes wrong. Thanks for your courage to publish warts and all, keep up this good work

Dullnote

[DullnoteParticipant @dullnote]

Hi sorry use my other name for other thread DULLNOTE used for my classical guitar forum,

Jim

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Hi Jim

Thanks for the kind words, the satisfaction in finishing building your own home must be immense and something to take pleasure in everyday you're living in it! Glad you've enjoyed reading about the progress (and setbacks) with my little 'Victoria' – hope we get to see your son's cannon progressing soon.

Just a thought, you may not have the time, but why not think about detailing progress of setting up your workshop as well here. I for one would be very interested especially if you are using older equipment, I'm hoping to 'upgrade' by going backwards in time as it were in the future (not sure that makes sense but hope you get the idea). I'm sure others would be interested too and no doubt come up with lots of interesting advice etc…

Good luck with it all.

Cheers

Allan.

ps and my drill bits have finally just arrived….

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

For what it's worth, if the pin is at 1 degree to the vertical the error in the measurement of length with be about 0.015%, less than 2 thou on a 10" pin….*

A 1-degree error is pretty easy to see – the human eye is very good at judging right angles.

I note that the pin measures 1-thou SHORTER in the second picture which suggests Allan's ability to stand it upright exceeds the accuracy of his height gauge

 

Not that I don't agree that it is good practice to use something to ensure the pin is upright.

@Jim – don't know about 'dullnote' but your message struck a bright note for me – great to have someone back in the fold and glad you kept your gear!

 

Neil

 

*I'd better acknowledge that this only applies if the pin is very thin or has a radiused end, if it's flat it could well give teh sort of error Allan's measurement shows, but then a flat ended pin ought to be easy to set vertical!

Edited By Stub Mandrel on 07/01/2014 17:04:06

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Well Alan

From your pics it looks like the error in your original measurement was 0.01mm – or for those of us with "longer experience" of life, 0.00039 in.

Now, given that the Victoria is a scale model of a typical horizontal mill engine, I'm sure that "error" scaled up is well within the tolerance allowed on the original. ( I know what you mean though and I too attempt to get things "just right" rather than "right enough". – *Some might say I'm "fussy"!)

[* must go I just got a call to assist in the kitchen.]

Cheers

Norman

[Geoff~Participant @geoff46085]

Allan,

Still enjoying this great series. Just curious, what are you using as a surface table?

regards

Geoff~

[Author]

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