Stuart ‘No.1’ : a beginners tale..

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Ian, we are talking about studs to hold the clamps to the mill table, not studs for the engine which are a completely different matter

Allan you don't really need a deburing tool for small drilled holes you can just twist a larger drill or CSK bit round with your fingers, external corners a fine file will do it sjust large rounded or curved internal corners where a deburring tool is useful. Having said that I did get one of these little sets from Tracy and they are getting quite a bit of use.

J

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Hi Ian

Yes, as Jason says – talking about studs just for clamping. I have a feeling whoever designed my clamping studs has never had to use them, I nearly always have to use more than one 'clamp' per stud to be able to tighten.. A continuous thread would seem to make much more sense for that job..

Hi Jason

Thanks, I've used Tracy a lot so its good to have that link, I think they will be useful..

Ready for some more soldering now after doing the fixing holes on the other bearing cap. Been wondering a bit how the initial drilling of the bearing 'permanent pairs' through on the join is going to go… and hoping that at least having the cobalt bits now will maybe increase the odds of success… The gunmetal was 'grabbing' at the bit when simply drilling the bearing caps – imagine it may be worse on the join. Yet another first at that..

No washers on the bearing cap drawings by the way – but something to remember to check before spot facing in the future!

A few more photo's finishing the fixing holes..

The second bearing cap with fixing holes and spot faced..

Test fitting both bearing caps – just lined up by hand, not fixed yet 1.

Test fitting both bearing caps – just lined up by hand, not fixed yet 2.

Test fitting both bearing caps – just lined up by hand, not fixed yet 3.

The photo shows it doesn't line up perfectly on the housing, bit too long on the one end – but it's not too bad..

Regards

Allan.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Sorry, must not have read things clearly, yes I understand about the clamping studs. I have a wee box of steel spacers of different lengths that I use to space the excess stud length, other wise, if I need clearance, I use a suitable length bolt, preferably with a washer under the head.

      On the ST9 project I used washers under the nuts, they are the same diameter as the AF dimension of the nuts.  No nuts is quite prototypical on a motor or other machinery of this type.       Ian S C

Edited By Ian S C on 06/05/2014 12:25:50

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

No nuts (washers..) is quite prototypical on a motor or other machinery of this type.

That's interesting and good to know, thanks Ian.

Anyone following is probably sick of seeing photo's of my bearings by now – if so click away now – because here's a couple more!

Time has been against me the last few days but hope to start drilling them tomorrow…

Temporary soldering of the first bearing pair.

The first bearing pair after soldering. Looking a bit sorry for itself..

After a quick cleanup again – checking the alignment is still ok after soldering – and before drilling.

I've been getting a bit paranoid after reading of problems drilling brass and gunmetal. Especially after experiencing the drill bit grabbing when enlarging the pilot hole in simply drilling the fixing holes for the caps – on every hole as well… Julian has kindly given me some pointers about the need to 'back off' the drill bit rake angle for Gunmetal. I've found this little video helpful in understanding a bit more – the example is in plastic but I believe would apply to Brass and Gunmetal as well.. **LINK**

I think I will try to do myself before starting..

Regards.

Allan.

 

 

Edited By Allan. on 07/05/2014 16:18:49

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

It's worth remembering the Stuart No. 1 isn't a model; steam engine, it's a small steam engine, so 'prototypical' is highly subjective.

Washers are rare on old machinery and steam engines in general, but not unknown.

Neil

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Hi Neil

I'm looking much more closely at any old equipment I come across these days, although I've always had an interest in such things the great thing now is that what I'm learning in ME is often directly relevant and makes it even more interesting. Washers or the lack of them are something that I haven't been noticing though – no doubt I will in future now! I've seen quite a few steam engines on TV since doing and completing Victoria with almost identical or very similar looking parts or workings – its a great feeling to have a more 'intimate' knowledge..

Cheers.

Allan.

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Allan. on 07/05/2014 19:36:20:

I'm looking much more closely at any old equipment I come across these days,

Allan.

.

Have a day off and an early morning start and visit here :- **LINK**

Nick

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Hi Nick

Yes nice link, have been saying for a while it would be good to visit Bolton and pay respect to Fred and visit the / his heritage centre – now have two reasons..

Cheers.

Allan.

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Allan. on 07/05/2014 20:17:59:

Hi Nick

Yes nice link, have been saying for a while it would be good to visit Bolton and pay respect to Fred and visit the / his heritage centre – now have two reasons..

Cheers.

Allan.

Back in about 2003-4 I remember shooting a model draped 'artistically' on the full size steam engine in what was 'The Lion Salt Works' in Cheshire. Think they are now trying to raise money to renovate it and have secured the building. But back then you could just open the door and walk into the shed.

No idea if I could post them here.??? – Purely for research purposes of course.! Perhaps a moderator could clarify.?

Nick

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I've no problem with it. I assume its a Female model so as long as there is no nudity thats OK. Not that we would be looking at the model anyway

I think the Salt Works featured on Restoration when they were trying to raise funds.

J

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by JasonB on 07/05/2014 20:53:01:

so as long as there is no nudity

J

Looks like they will not be getting posted then.!

But it is a smashing engine. I remember thinking that if you put steam onto it, it would have started like it's last run was yesterday. The boiler however was a totally different story and it would have taken a very brave man to have raised steam.

Nick

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Maybe you could Photoshop a boiler suit onto her

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

My first setback with the No.1 today – I'm sure there will be lots more…

When drilling on the Lathe, the solder joint failed at the 7.5mm drill bit and despite re-soldering couldn't get it square again for some reason, so will have to redo one of the bearings, at least. They have to be soldered as a pair to do the OD so a bit of a setback. All going beautifully until that happened, I intended to get a boring bar in at 8mm, to take to the 'undersize' before boring between centres later as the last step….. So bit unlucky as well maybe to get that far and fail..

As they are going to be bored to the final diameter in situ I'm inclined to try drilling the other one on the Mill and if ok do the same with the remade one – unless someone strongly advises against it.

I found it difficult to hold them in the 4 jaw – the two side 'lugs' with the fixing holes were just 'sliding down' 2 of the jaws – it was just in the wrong place when centred to hold with all 4 jaws – I'm wondering if this contributed to the joint failing maybe. Think I will be better off clamping to the Mill Table (with parallel blocks or something)….

Cheers.

Allan.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I would just put the bearings and caps in place as they are and then do the rest on the lathe.

You can hold a drill bit in the 3-jaw to open up the holes large enough to get the boring bar in and with them bolted down they won't be going anywhere

This and this are a couple of mine being done that way

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

Alan I would bolt them in place on the baseplate making sure they are solid they would not need sweating together I would then mount the whole lot on the cross slide at the correct height using centres in head and tail stocks and drill then ream ( I don't have a milling machine ) You could bolt the baseplate to an angle plate on the mill and do them that way Excuse me if I'm sticking my oar in

Roy

[Anonymous]

Posted by Allan. on 08/05/2014 18:12:20:

When drilling on the Lathe, the solder joint failed at the 7.5mm drill bit and despite re-soldering couldn't get it square again for some reason, so will have to redo one of the bearings, at least. They have to be soldered as a pair to do the OD so a bit of a setback. All going beautifully until that happened, I intended to get a boring bar in at 8mm, to take to the 'undersize' before boring between centres later as the last step….. So bit unlucky as well maybe to get that far and fail.

Sorry to hear that; still that's how experience is gained. That's why I don't use the method.

I'd make a jig so that the bearing pair can be held securely. If the jig is accurately located before boring then one can bore the bearing pairs individually while being assured that they will line up when assembled into the baseplate.

Andrew

PS: Sorry to be a smartypants, but I couldn't resist it.

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Hi Jason and Roy

Thanks, wish I had seen both these posts earlier, bit too late for the second bearing now though after me trying to re-solder and continue.. However thanks to these posts I can see its maybe a good idea to get on the cross slide as early as possible… Have to remake the one now but then I think I'll drill 'small' holes first on the Mill as the small bits are too short to reach through both bearings in situ on the lathe – then as suggested open out using drill bits in the 3 jaw and do the rest by boring on the lathe cross slide – with the bearings securely bolted down this time..

Hopefully I can align the bearings before boring on the cross slide by 'holding' on the head and tailstock centres to pack the soleplate to height. Hope that makes sense..

So it will be a while before I get back to this point again to be able to continue here..!

Cheers.

Allan.

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Hi Andrew

First thing I thought of when the solder failed and the bearings slipped – your earlier post about you having similar problems and not using the method any more!

I'll be back before too long..

Cheers.

Allan.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

you could always loctite them together instead of solder.

i would fit the bolts/studs, then bore out the bearing holes. make sure the studs/bolts are 'fitted'. tight push fit clearance hole initially.

anyway this is how ive done split big ends and numerous eccentric straps over the years.

cheers,

julian

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Hi Julian

Thanks, yes I would like to try this method. I would be grateful to know which number Loctite you are using? Also do you just heat to separate and if you are using a solvent afterwards to clean up or just rubbing down with emery… Although I guess I can get this from just knowing which one you are using..

I can see it may be a cleaner, easier way for the future. I can post up on here then as well – as its different from my first efforts others may be interested to see by comparison etc..

Once together think I would just drill small holes in each on the mill or even drill press to use to centre on the cross slide, then drill and bore in situ having everything 'bolted down'.. Then to separate afterwards of course..

Cheers.

Allan.

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

I've just been cleaning up a bit my disaster from yesterday. I swear yesterday it looked like something from a horror movie, but now I'm not quite so sure if it can't be saved…

I'd be grateful of any opinions, I'll go take some pics after breakfast…

Cheers.

Allan.

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

I'm wondering if the misalignment will bore out in situ on the lathe cross slide. The finished bore needs to be 12.7mm. Since the bearing joint failed and I re-soldered I've had a boring bar through and the hole I guess would be about 8mm at the moment. The photos show the re-soldering has misaligned the bearing halfs'. I wondered what others would do – from the perspective of this being only an all time project no. 2 that is. I can't expect anything like 'brilliant' yet of course and should maybe see if I can get away with it and put it down to experience? Or should I redo?

This after the joint had failed and re-soldered – and me thinking I could get in with a small boring bar.

My smallest boring bar that would be long enough..

This would be the 'front face' in the housing. It looked much worse yesterday with all the re-soldering marks etc..

The front face again. 2.

This is the 'rear face' or internal face when in the housing – you can plainly see after re-soldering the misalignment.

In the housing – again you can see the misalignment on the housing 'block'..

In the housing – again you can see the misalignment on the housing 'block' 2..

In the housing – again you can see the misalignment on the housing 'block' 3.

I would be grateful for any opinions – from an all time no.2 project that is. I imagine many on here wouldn't dream of continuing with it, but remembering back to when you were starting out….?

I've certainly learned from it, which is always a good thing… Strangely I have developed quite a fond memory of some of Victoria's mistakes that still sit on the engine.. I have to improve on that though this time around..

Regards

Allan.

Edited By Allan. on 09/05/2014 10:37:21

[Anonymous]

Assuming that there is enough metal left to salvage the parts it's a matter of personal preference.

On my traction engines I've made complex parts again simply because I wasn't happy with the finish. On the other hand some journals on my two crankshafts are different sizes because I badgered up the machining on one of them. I decided not to buy a new casting and start again; I'll just bore the mating parts to fit.

Andrew

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

Alan Just bolt them firmly to the housing If they are solid they won't need soldering and as I said yesterday set the whole lot up either on the cross slide or on an angle plate on the mill then drill and ream

Roy

ps I wouldn't ream to finished size till you've done the crankshaft

Edited By roy entwistle on 09/05/2014 13:07:06

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Hi Andrew

I'm thinking at the moment I'm best to carry on and see how the boring goes, will sleep on it. If that goes ok, its not going to notice that much if at all as the eccentric sits right in front of that bearing housing. The original fit was good and I know what went wrong and learnt from it – so there's probably little to gain by going over old ground and remaking, perhaps more important at the moment to keep going forward and learning more… The bearing is still a solid fit in the housing.

I'm puzzled at how bad it looked yesterday and before cleaning up this morning, it seemed much much worse than the photo's suggest now – must have been all the excess solder..

It would be good to see some photo's of your traction engine progressing sometime.

Hi Roy.

Yes after cleaning them up this morning I'm coming round to thinking to do just that (on the cross slide). But maybe boring instead of reaming….although if the drilling is much better when everything is bolted down I may try reaming..

Thanks.

Cheers.

Allan.

 

Edited By Allan. on 09/05/2014 13:17:48

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