Stuart ‘No.1’ : a beginners tale..

[Martin CottrellParticipant @martincottrell21329]

Hi Allan,

Nice job so far! I've sent you a PM regarding your brazing hearth setup.

Regards, Martin.

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

I thought that the hay in the background might not be the greatest idea.

Speaking of corrosive flux, I have a bottle of commercial flux, which is based as far as I can tell on killed spirits, eg zinc chloride. I keep this out of the workshop, since if the fumes of it get anywhere near steel, they will cause it to rust. The bottle doesn't need to be open for this to happen.

I've done two Stuart Number 1's, along with a 10V and a double 10. I don't know how more recent ones would be, but in the past something to watch for was that cast parts as supplied were sometimes already below the nominal size. This meant making adjustments to the sizes of other parts. Usually no great problem but something to be aware of. Although since all of mine would have been from the eighties or earlier, this may not apply to current production.

I've always done my spot facing with home made cutters. You drill a hole the size of the pilot you want in the end of a piece of silver steel bar the diameter of the desired spot. You then file with a little triangular file to make cutting teeth. No dividing needed, you can do it all by eye. Just try to make sure that the back of each tooth meets the front of the next without leaving a little flat or taking off too much. It is actually a good thing if all the teeth vary in pitch slightly since it reduces any tendency to chatter. Eight or so teeth is plenty. The cutter is then hardened and tempered. Heat the cutting end up to the colour of a boiled carrot, hold it there for a bit, then plunge into cold water. At this point it will be dead hard and very brittle so don't drop it. Now polish the outside surface with wet and dry paper to bring it back to shiny metal…don't worry about the teeth, just the shank. Heat it up back from the tip and watch the colours as they move up from the flame. When the light yellow tinge reaches the edge, plunge it into water again. That should give you an edge that is hard enough to cut, but not too brittle. Make a pilot pin the right diameter and push it into the hole in the end with a drop of loctite. The advantage of a piloted cutter is that the spot will always be concentric with the screw hole, and you don't have to carefully line the job up on the mill. You can off course buy piloted spot face cutters but they are quite expensive.

John

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Using solder paste, I wouldn't have pre-melted it. It should work fine (if not better, as fresh flux) just by smearing it on and heating the assembly. Billions of little (and large) electronic components are fixed this way every day.

Another thought, for soft soldering, you can use a jig made of wood, just a groove hacked out with a saw or rasp would do what that vice is doing.

For silver soldering, make some toolmaker's clamps. Don't make a showroom job of them If they are thrown together, you won't have any worries about heating them until they blister!

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 02/05/2014 10:04:33

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

very nice work allan!

dont wear trousers with turn ups when machining gunmetal in the lathe!

cheers,

julian

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Good advice Julian – but is it possible to get trousers with turn ups these days?

Alan I agree – please don't subject that nice little vice to the fury of the blowtorch.

Cheers

Norman

[JoParticipant @jo]

I agree with Neil, solder paste should be applied sparingly only where it is needed, once applied the two parts are put together and heated, until the solder runs = goes shiny and runs out at the edges.

Once you have heated the solder paste, or any soft solder, you loose the flux and like you observed the oxidisation on the surface of the solder will make it difficult to get a good joint. This can be remedied by applying flux (plumbers variety) or by introducing new flux cored soft solder.

Any heat sinks (that vice) will make the time to heat up the work longer and increase the likely hood of the flux boiling off before the solder mounts and may cause a brittle joint that will fail (normally a the most inopportune time like whilst you are machining). So a couple of small off cuts which have minimum surface area with the work is more than adequate. And, as a friend introduced me to the other day, a "lazy bird" (a three legged tripod with weight on one leg) that rest on the item to be soldered in more than adequate to prevent things going astray when the solder melts.

I am not sure why you did not do the boring of the bearing whilst you had them set up…

Jo

 

Edited By Jo on 02/05/2014 10:29:16

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Good morning everyone – its nice to see a few messages here, thanks to all of you. (had me worried for a minute I'd set off on the wrong track or something, but still great to see – just come in for a quick tea..) I'm beginning to see that there is a lot to learn about different soldering techniques – after having a little go now and a bit more reading up, it's easier to start to relate a bit more to all the advice. I was very surprised at how quickly the Gunmetal heated up and how it seemed to take for ever to cool – I'm wondering if that has anything to do with Julian's advice!

My little vice seems very popular – I'd better start to look after it a bit more! But seriously – yes I'll definitely use something else in future…

I'm just about finishing off the turning on the top bearing 'half's' and will put a couple of photo's up later – I realised that I should have been turning down the sides of the 'lugs' as well and have them looking a bit better now – and almost to all over size.. (I'll never win any prices for speed me…).

Jo – I'm wondering if your last thoughts on boring the bearing is because I wasn't good in explaining that the bearing half's are the tops of 2 separate bearings, have a feeling I didn't make that clear… Have to see if I can find a 'Lazy Bird' pic, sounds interesting…!

I'll take all the advice given on board and read through it again later…

Many thanks again.

Allan.

 

Edited By Allan. on 02/05/2014 12:25:10

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would, if I was making the bearings solder the cap to the bottom half, and bore them that way to a few thou under size, and after assembling them on the motor ream the bores to size. Although I did not need to do the bearings on the ST 9, it could be seen by traces of solder, that they were done that way.

Ian S C

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Up past bedtime, Ian?

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think the plan is to mount the base casting with bearings attatched in the lathe cross slide and line bore them with a between centres bar which should result in them being truer than two pre bored bearings.

This is the way suggested in the book about building the No 1 which Allan is following.

 

J

Edited By JasonB on 02/05/2014 16:14:31

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Hi Ian

Yes, thats the next step I was planning on, only I thought to bore between centres as the last stage to get them lined up properly.. Also thinking I should spot through the fixing holes (tapping size – not drilled them yet) in their respective housings while the lower and uppers are still soldered together.

I had thought the distance from the chuck might be a bit too far to ream them..

ah – Jason just beat me to it!

Cheers.

Allan.

Edited By Allan. on 02/05/2014 16:20:46

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Finished the turning on the top bearing half's earlier..

I put them into the 3 Jaw to do the other side holding on the recently turned OD. Not much to hold onto but I was taking very light cuts and it did all seem very solid and spinning true – and went ok..

I realised I should have been turning down the 'sides' as well to get the central dimension right as well, not to mention the finish.. So after doing this side I turned around in the chuck and did the other side again.. (hope that makes sense…)

The top bearing half's after turning was finished. If compared with the photo's yesterday, a big improvement..

All done to size now.

The top bearing half's after turning 2. It will be interesting to try a different tool insert for gunmetal as my lathe seems to not be doing the finish I usually get with other materials used so far..

Sorry photo's not great again – not helped by the light in my workshop when the outside doors are closed. I have a 90w, halogen I think it is, just about 4 – 5ft above the Lathe but it's nowhere near good enough. I'm wondering if I can get another type of bulb to fit the 'standard bayonet' holder which is more powerful..

Also wondering how people usually go about polishing or just getting a finish to something like the top (un machined) tops of the bearings – I used to have a Dremel, I'm guessing maybe some use something similar …? Can do it by hand and some wet and dry of course or emery etc but it seems there's probably an easier or better way..

Have a good bank holiday everyone..

Regards.

Allan

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Emery drums in a dremel work wonder on steel , but even then they can be quite aggressive and round corners/edges you want kept sharp. They might chew off gunmetal too fast.

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

On a full size engine the bearings and caps would have been separate items with the cap in cast iron. So no need for a mirrored polished surface unless thats what floats your boat. Just clean up with a sharp file and then wrap a bit of 150grit Emery cloth around the file to finish. Myself I would paint the cap and just leave the round bearing bright.

These are 150g finish and then painted

J

J

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Hi Neil

Thanks I've been thinking about getting another dremel, mine went down before starting ME – thinking now it would be useful to have one again..

Hi Jason

I had thought about painting the cap – your photo's have totally convinced me, very nice. Painting is yet another skill in its own right of course. I hand painted Victoria but had already thought to have a go at spraying for the No. 1. Its a long ways off and not much thought yet but am thinking maybe car spray paints, primer etc may be possible just to give it a go and improve on hand painting – which wasn't very good at all…

Cheers

Allan.

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by JasonB on 02/05/2014 18:05:56:

**Nick_G drools.

Finest engineering porn if ever I saw it.!

Jason. This is decadent deviancy.

Nick

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

I like the idea of trying to make a little progress most days, no matter how small even when time is difficult – it keeps things moving forward, not always possible but it worked well with Victoria..

So this morning I just separated the bearing half's ready for the next step..

Heating to separate the top bearing half's. It seemed to take a lot more heat to separate them than it did to solder them together.

The top bearing half's after separating 1.

The top bearing half's after separating 2. At this point I wondered if I had over done the heat and ruined them – but after a little rubbing on some wet and dry paper they came up very easily. Think I had to put in a bit more effort than 'normal' for this though in order to get rid of my bad tool marks which were preventing cleaning up properly – hopefully as I'll need to clean them up again shortly after soldering for drilling and boring, it will be easier to do next time around…

The top bearing half's after some cleaning 1.

The top bearing half's after some cleaning 2.

Decided to drill the fixing holes after separating so I could spot face on the Mill in the same way as earlier – next job to do..

Regards

Allan.

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Just managed to do the fixing holes and spot face one of the top bearing 'caps' today.. Not long to do..

Checking the size of the fixing nuts a/c for spot facing – used a 10mm End Mill..

Setup used on the Mill to drill the 4mm 2BA Clearance Holes for the bearing 'caps' – and to spot face..

I must get around to lengthening the threads on my clamping studs to avoid having to use so many clamp pieces..

Couldn't use my vice, when I looked carefully the jaws do seem to sometimes be 'rising' or at least pushing the work up when tightened – as Jason suggested they might earlier.. I know the studs won't fit properly unless the holes are bang on vertical.. Have to get a new decent one soon..

The work turned around to do the other side..

Test fitting on the bottom bearing half (just lined up by hand, not fixed) – far from perfect, but not too bad I hope – ready for soldering together, drilling and boring (1)..

Test fitting on the bottom bearing half (just lined up by hand, not fixed) – far from perfect, but not too bad I hope – ready for soldering together, drilling and boring (2)..

The other one to do now.

Regards.

Allan.

ps. can someone yell at me if to many 'small' updates – or if I should go back to just updating when whole parts are finished as I mostly did with Victoria. So quick and easy to upload too much…

Edited By Allan. on 04/05/2014 19:09:59

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

Hi Alan Just a couple of suggestions When you grip something like the two soldered caps in a 4 jaw if possible try not to grip where the join is if the two parts are not exactly the same length you could separate them by tightening the jaws Second point I would have drilled the stud holes 2ba tapping size so that you can spot through for the studs And don't forget to mark both relevant top and bottom bearings so that you keep them together as a pair and also the same way round

Hope this helps

Roy

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

So you are not fitting washers then

Rather then trying to thread your stud set which will likely have rolled threads anyway, get a bit of M10 studding or the same as the other threads and cut a few short ones.

Better to have regular posts then we can help before its possibly too late.

Further to what Roy says about holding on the split line which you really need to do to get the hole on the split in a lot of cases. If the blocks are out of line just file then flush and/or put a bit of soft aluminium packing between jaw and work. These caps probably could have been held diagonally which would have held them together rather than risk wedging apart.

J

[GaryMParticipant @garym]

As many updates as you want Allan, we're all temporarily soldered to this thread.

Gary

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Hi Roy

Yes, my mistake – I had meant to say 'tapping' size above (4mm for 2BA) for spotting through (I can't seem to edit it now), and the alarm bells did ring when putting into the chuck – I held them in the 4 Jaw with most holding force' on the 'flat' length, the other 2 jaws just steadying… Will do re marking the bearing pairs and housings. The sole plate casting is very irregular all over not making things any easier – not complaining it may even look better for it I think, maybe how the original was.. Please keep any advice coming – thanks, am very grateful..

Hi Jason

I didn't know about rolled threads and have just been reading about how they differ in the 'making' to cut threads – I'll get some extra studding as you suggest, it will be much more convenient to use.. You've got me thinking now if there are washers on the drawings – have to check tomorrow..!

Some of the nuts don't seem to be very well made, you can see in some of the photo's, being 'off centre' – or maybe its me looking at everything 'close up' these days since starting ME..! Thanks again..

Thanks Gary!

Cheers

Allan

 

 

Edited By Allan. on 04/05/2014 21:33:37

Edited By Allan. on 04/05/2014 21:40:41

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The "off centre " look is quite possibly due to one side being cut through the crest of the thread and the other the vally but the actual thread will be central. Look at them again with a stud in them and I'm sure they will be OK.

This is one reason its best to debur/lightly CSK a hole before its tapped so the CSK follows the true tapping hole and not the thread.

J

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Hi Jason

Quite right they do look ok when screwed onto a stud.. ! I have to get a deburring tool, its something I've been finding a bit of a issue with, I have nothing at the moment. Going to put on an order from RDG with a Mill Vice if they have one..

The sun must have been getting to me yesterday, a couple of mistakes in writing my last post, another one of course – "with most holding force' on the 'flat' length" – should read something like "most holding force over the tops of the caps"…

Just going to do the fixing holes for the second one, post later…

Cheers.

Allan.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Allan, there are some (one at least) who would consider it sacrilege it use threaded rod instead of a properly formed stud, but if you do, make sure that the exposed end has a nice radius, the correct number of exposed threads, and all the same hight. Ian S C

[Author]

Posts