steam oil

[BoldminerParticipant @boldminer]

With regards to steam oil, is any oil better than no oil?. Is there an alternative, what would be the best? The problem is I'am fast running out and I just can't source any here in Thailand. Help and advice much appreciated. Kindest regards, Colin.

[BoldminerParticipant @boldminer]

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

EP 220 is a comercial vehicle oil, or even EP 90, better than nothing. Noel.

[BoldminerParticipant @boldminer]

Wow Neil, that was quick! thanks for the information

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

I'd be very wary of using any EP oil on anything that has yellow metal bearings. The additives in Extreme Pressure oils can damage copper and it's alloys.

Morris sell steam oil https://www.morrislubricantsonline.co.uk/classic-and-steam/steam-products/cylinder-oils/

You could ask them if they have a local stockist or will ship internationally

It may be sold in smaller quantities on ebay but check shipping.

Any oil is better than nothing but a straight oil e.g. 220 or 68 slideway oil is better than a EP. If you can get tallow locally then dissolving some in iso 68 slide way oil would be a good compromise.

Robert.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

What's special about Steam Oil is it's ability to withstand unusually high temperatures and pressures without disintegrating or thinning to the point they no longer lubricate. It's tougher than ordinary engine oil, more like a high temperature gear oil.

I'd bet money Steam Oil is available in Thailand because it's a common industrial oil. Sales for steaming models must be trivial compared with it's main use – lots of industrial steam processes. Problem buying commercial chemicals, in Thailand and elsewhere, is finding a supplier prepared to deal with Joe Public.

Alternatives, dunno. Given model locos are relatively low pressure steam, gear oil or even engine oil might do. Experiment to see if it emulsifies or decomposes. Also check bearing surfaces after running for scoring in case the substitute thins and fails to lubricate. Another possibility is High Temperature Chain Oil, used in the sort of oven used to churn out millions of mince pies, and maybe fast food outlets!

Before mineral oils became available in the late 19th Century, steam engines were lubricated with vegetable and animal products – tallow, olive oil etc. Worked reasonably well, though their inability to cope with high temperature and pressure delayed the introduction of superheat for 30 years. I guess 20:50 motor oil is better than anything available to Stephenson! And a great deal depends on how hard and for how long the engine is worked. Huge difference between a model loco steamed gently at weekends that can be opened up and fixed by the owner and the steam turbine in a nuclear power station, which has to run flat-out for years on end, and any stoppage is a disaster.

Dave

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

There are sugar mills and rice mills in Thailand still using 19th century horizontal steam engines, according to that fount of all knowledge YouTube, thanks to a guy named Rob Dickinson. They must use some kind of steam oil? Might be obtainable at the back gate in small quantities?

Hmmm. Click on the link in the below box and it will take you to the very interesting video of "Temples of Steam" in Thai sugar/rice mills.

Edited By Hopper on 23/03/2023 10:48:31

Edited By Hopper on 23/03/2023 10:49:24

Edited By Hopper on 23/03/2023 10:52:20

[BoldminerParticipant @boldminer]

Thanks for all the information everyone. It looks like I'm going to have to do some more searching over here. There is a power station located in Krabi (not too far from Phuket) i'll see if I can get to visit. That is a very interesting video posted by Hopper. My coal is also running out but I've located a stock yard in a place called Nakon Si Thammerat which I plan visit so until then I'm using charcoal ( it's like giving a donkey strawberries ) any comments . It so happens that my route to Nakon takes me through Krabi so wish me luck. Regards to all, Colin

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Boldminer on 24/03/2023 00:29:20:

Thanks for all the information everyone. It looks like I'm going to have to do some more searching over here. There is a power station located in Krabi (not too far from Phuket) i'll see if I can get to visit. That is a very interesting video posted by Hopper. My coal is also running out but I've located a stock yard in a place called Nakon Si Thammerat which I plan visit so until then I'm using charcoal ( it's like giving a donkey strawberries ) any comments . It so happens that my route to Nakon takes me through Krabi so wish me luck. Regards to all, Colin

Good luck with the hunt. I doubt you will find steam oil at a modern steam turbine power station. I never came across it in quite a few years of working in power stations and boiler houses.

Steam Oil was/is a mix of very heavy mineral oil and tallow rendered from animal fat, designed to stick to the cylinder walls and valve chests of reciprocating steam engines without being washed away by the mixture of steam and condensate blasting through them.

It is not used in modern turbines or other rotary steam-powered machinery. Their bearings are lubricated by circulated mineral oil with no contact with steam at all. It is akin to hydraulic oil. The bearing housings are usually separate from the turbine steam casings to stop crossover. You would not want steam contaminating your oil on a 3,000rpm bearing, nor oil contaminating the condenser where steam is recycled into feed water.

I think the only places you might find steam oil are those still running the old reciprocating engines and pumps. Or any of the heritage steam train operators in Thailand. But some of the steam men at the power station might know of any old rice or sugar mills around still using their "heritage" reciprocating engines. Or they might be able to put you onto a national oil distributor who supplies such old installations with steam oil.

As an aside, it certainly is a testament to 19th century technology and craftsmanship that so many of those old engines are still running daily in hard use across much of Asia. There are quite a few in India, Vietnam and Indonesia that show up on YouTube too. I see a busman's holiday coming up now airfares are getting back to pre-covid affordability, sort of. Hop skip and jump from northern Australia.

Edited By Hopper on 24/03/2023 05:43:30

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

Try Ben at Boulton Scale Models.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Hopper on 24/03/2023 05:39:04:

Posted by Boldminer on 24/03/2023 00:29:20:

Thanks for all the information everyone. It looks like I'm going to have to do some more searching over here. There is a power station located in Krabi (not too far from Phuket) i'll see if I can get to visit. That is a very interesting video posted by Hopper. My coal is also running out but I've located a stock yard in a place called Nakon Si Thammerat which I plan visit so until then I'm using charcoal ( it's like giving a donkey strawberries ) any comments . It so happens that my route to Nakon takes me through Krabi so wish me luck. Regards to all, Colin

…

Steam Oil was/is a mix of very heavy mineral oil and tallow rendered from animal fat, designed to stick to the cylinder walls and valve chests of reciprocating steam engines without being washed away by the mixture of steam and condensate blasting through them.

…

I think the only places you might find steam oil are those still running the old reciprocating engines and pumps. …

Hopper's description of 'Steam Oil' is incorrect, or at least old-fashioned! Unlikely that any modern oil has tallow in it, though it was certainly used in the past. Steam Oil in the modern sense is a high-temperature oil – one that maintains lubricity at operating temperatures >200°, and resists pressure. In other words an oil that doesn't cook quickly and lose it's effectiveness!

I suppose it's natural for Model Engineers to think in terms of reciprocating engines and turbines, but they aren't big users of Steam Oil these days. The main customer now is what industry call 'Process Steam'. Steam is ideal for any process requiring a lot of heat between 100° and 600°C so the term covers a huge number of applications other than motors. Chemicals, Plastics, Food, Refineries, and Textiles etc rather than chuff chuffs.

I think Boldminer's problem is finding a source in Thailand who will sell him some! It may not be a consumer item at all in Thailand, possibly only available in 200litre drums to tax registered businesses. Or it could be available in small quantities from specialist vendors, which is why I suggested substituting high temperature chain oil because some fast-food outlets might need it. My friend who lived in Thailand, now deceased, found it an interesting mix of Soviet-style discipline and eastern free enterprise. He bought a large reel of electric cable off the official who connected his house to the mains the wrong way round in exchange for a few Bahts and a dog. Later, he couldn't buy a replacement hard-drive for his computer, despite them being made in Thailand. He visited the factory and found a modern installation behind a security fence with uniformed guards patrolling. After offering cash he was politely but firmly told to go away…

Later, he found the dog was probably a mistake. Being a western dog-lover himself, he'd assumed it was wanted for a pet. His Thai wife explained more likely it was for food. Apparently – though not widely approved of – there are communities in Thailand who eat dog after improving the flavour by beating them to death. When first married in the 1970s they lived in England, where I remember her refusing to eat a British pub meat pie because it was disgusting. She was right – anyone else remember the muck served up in the good old days. Pork-scratchings were the nicest edible on sale! One of the pubs I drank in still had sawdust on the lino and spittoons.

Dave

[Nick HughesParticipant @nickhughes97026]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 24/03/2023 09:53:50:

Posted by Hopper on 24/03/2023 05:39:04:

Posted by Boldminer on 24/03/2023 00:29:20:

Thanks for all the information everyone. It looks like I'm going to have to do some more searching over here. There is a power station located in Krabi (not too far from Phuket) i'll see if I can get to visit. That is a very interesting video posted by Hopper. My coal is also running out but I've located a stock yard in a place called Nakon Si Thammerat which I plan visit so until then I'm using charcoal ( it's like giving a donkey strawberries ) any comments . It so happens that my route to Nakon takes me through Krabi so wish me luck. Regards to all, Colin

…

Steam Oil was/is a mix of very heavy mineral oil and tallow rendered from animal fat, designed to stick to the cylinder walls and valve chests of reciprocating steam engines without being washed away by the mixture of steam and condensate blasting through them.

…

I think the only places you might find steam oil are those still running the old reciprocating engines and pumps. …

Hopper's description of 'Steam Oil' is incorrect, or at least old-fashioned! Unlikely that any modern oil has tallow in it, though it was certainly used in the past. Steam Oil in the modern sense is a high-temperature oil – one that maintains lubricity at operating temperatures >200°, and resists pressure. In other words an oil that doesn't cook quickly and lose it's effectiveness!

Not quite correct, Tallow is still used today:-

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 24/03/2023 09:53:50:

Posted by Hopper on 24/03/2023 05:39:04:

Posted by Boldminer on 24/03/2023 00:29:20:

Thanks for all the information everyone. It looks like I'm going to have to do some more searching over here. There is a power station located in Krabi (not too far from Phuket) i'll see if I can get to visit. That is a very interesting video posted by Hopper. My coal is also running out but I've located a stock yard in a place called Nakon Si Thammerat which I plan visit so until then I'm using charcoal ( it's like giving a donkey strawberries ) any comments . It so happens that my route to Nakon takes me through Krabi so wish me luck. Regards to all, Colin

…

Steam Oil was/is a mix of very heavy mineral oil and tallow rendered from animal fat, designed to stick to the cylinder walls and valve chests of reciprocating steam engines without being washed away by the mixture of steam and condensate blasting through them.

…

I think the only places you might find steam oil are those still running the old reciprocating engines and pumps. …

Hopper's description of 'Steam Oil' is incorrect, or at least old-fashioned! Unlikely that any modern oil has tallow in it, though it was certainly used in the past. Steam Oil in the modern sense is a high-temperature oil – one that maintains lubricity at operating temperatures >200°, and resists pressure. In other words an oil that doesn't cook quickly and lose it's effectiveness!

I suppose it's natural for Model Engineers to think in terms of reciprocating engines and turbines, but they aren't big users of Steam Oil these days. The main customer now is what industry call 'Process Steam'. Steam is ideal for any process requiring a lot of heat between 100° and 600°C so the term covers a huge number of applications other than motors. Chemicals, Plastics, Food, Refineries, and Textiles etc rather than chuff chuffs.

Steam oil today still most often contains tallow, as its makers and sellers proudly proclaim. Sometimes it is referred to as fatty oils or fatty compounds, other times as tallow. Here are two of many examples. LINK LINK  (Edit: As Nick posted above while I was sweating over a hot keyboard.)

As I said before, oil is not mixed with the steam in turbines — no sliding surfaces on the steam side to lubricate — so you won't find steam oil in a modern power-station. And it is not mixed in with process steam because process steam is used for heating or for injecting into chemical processes, foodstuffs, refinery heat exchangers etc, not for driving steam-operated sliding mechanisms that require lubrication. In most process applications, oil would be a very unwanted contaminant.

High temperature oils used for lubricating conveyors etc outside the steam environment is a different beast but might be second choice if no proper steam oil with tallow is available.

Edited By Hopper on 24/03/2023 11:10:25

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