Steam Canoe Machinery

[WearyParticipant @weary]

I take it that you are already aware that this topic has been covered in Model Engineer magazine: Vol. XIX, no.385. Sept. 10 1908. Key points:

Engine used Stuart No.3.

Flash steam generator 30ft tube using eight burner intensive primus stove – weight 25lbs.

Engine runs 500 to 600 rpm driving a 7" three bladed propeller speed attained 5 miles per hour. Steam generator keeps-up 70lbs per sq in under these circumstances.

Canoe carries two passengers and an engineer.

Builder, Mr Bickford, intends to fit a 2" x 2" single cylinder engine (as he finds it more powerful at equal steam pressures) together with a 14" Locomobile steam car burner and a 10" three-bladed propeller. Nota: a subsequent letter advises against the Locomobile burner.

 

There is also a very brief entry in Vol.V, No.63, December 15 1901, page 276 referring to a steam-driven twin-screw canoe:

Hull: ordinary Canadian model, 18ft long carrying two persons, draft cruising trim 8ins.

4hp engine driving twin screws of 8" diameter.  Flash steam boiler.

 

Regards,

Phil

Edited By Weary on 30/05/2021 12:41:17

[AdrianRParticipant @adrianr18614]

Pete,

If you are making and not buying the hull, could you not scale it up a little to increase the displacement?

I assume displacement would go up with the cube.

Adrian

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Std assumed passenger weight used to be 75kg now updated to 85kg as applied to most marine legislation. MCA use 85kg per pax for stability calculations.

Paul.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Although the Cygnet and the twin version the Swan are no longer made you could tweak a 5A and fabricate the pumps, condenser etc to end up with something similar

As an idea of size the first one in this thread gives a good idea with a No1 back left, 5A back right and a Swan (without marine gubbins on the floor

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Thinking about it a bit more I would be tempted to go for a twin of about 40mm bore and stroke and build from scratch which would likely cost about half what a similar sized Stuart offering would if available like a twin No4. It would be built more along the lines of one of Ray Hasbrouch's engines with the cylinders cut from a block of CI, two turned trunk guides and stood on 4-5 columns rather than A frame castings.

[Peter Cuthbert 1Participant @petercuthbert1]

Hi Everybody

Many thanks for all these posts. They are much appreciated.

A few responses to provide answers to questions. Noel, I do have the drawings for an oil (paraffin) fired coil boiler as used in Taniwha whose details are available on the Steam Boat Association website. That comes in at 12kg and can supports an ST Signet driving a 12 X 20 propeller. I might be able to arm twist and get permission to build one of those. Thanks Phil for the reference to the 1908 article in Model Engineer. I know I am an Old Wrinklie, but I must have missed that issue. It would be interesting to read if anyone has it as a PDF.

Adrian, I would agree that for a pocket steam launch a little more space is required. For those who fancy the idea and have space to keep a boat do look at the Fyne Four [https://www.fyneboatkits.co.uk/kits/sailing/fynefour/] which is also 13ft but 5ft wide. It is also available as drawings from Selway Fisher as the Stonaway 12. Very pretty and would be a good choice. In my case having done/experienced/suffered a 'downsize' there is nowhere to keep a boat on a trailer. I have one stuck in the Lake District which I will have to sell as I now live too far away. The Fairlight would be built as a 'cut in half' canoe each piece of which would be a little over 20kg. That would be easy to stow in the VeeDub and could be stowed on the planned loft insert for the garage. The latter is planned to sit on rafters above the garage door mechanism. (See photo) [Rest of post to follow – system will not allow me to post it…]

Edited By Peter Cuthbert 1 on 30/05/2021 17:49:34

Edited By Peter Cuthbert 1 on 30/05/2021 17:57:27

[Niels AbildgaardParticipant @nielsabildgaard33719]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 30/05/2021 10:24:33:

1. The 5 kn requirement is quite tough because the power needed to overcome resistance is proportional to speed squared. Travelling at 2kn needs a lot less power, and 10kn would need a much bigger motor.

 

Power demand grows with speed cubed for water friction and much worse for wave resistance close to decent hull speed (no planing).

Thats why the canal experiment is more important than designing steam plants first.

A mr Hiraoka has designed a casting- free engine for Heisler locomotives that can be a very smooth running V compound engine for a canoe

Canoue Compound

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 30/05/2021 18:02:51

[Peter Cuthbert 1Participant @petercuthbert1]

[Photo]

The whole idea is to see what can be done in the downsized environment. It may be that if I cannot get hold of the necessary machinery the Fairlight might just appear as a canoe project.

Thanks for the link to the pictures Jason. That 5a is a beautiful example. The idea of one of the American designers engines had crossed my mind. I have acquired the plans for a twin by Rudy Kouhoupt which is designed to be built from bar stock.

However, even if my lathe and machining skills were good enough, I do not think it would be a realistic idea to try to build an engine. My caring responsibilities and age mean that despite being busy all the time much less gets done in a day than when I was younger. I would build the canoe as that would be fun and fast but the rest must come from folks like you who are good model engineers.

When I get a little time I shall be going back to Dave Gerr's book to tie down the propeller size, pitch, blade number and blade area. It may be a Black Art, but it helps to know a few of the spells before heading into the Forest.

Best wishes

Pete

Edited By Peter Cuthbert 1 on 30/05/2021 18:02:42

[Rob McSweeneyParticipant @robmcsweeney81205]

Have you considered a steam powered outboard? From a quick look on Google, there seems to be quite a lot online, including some converted from dead petrol outboards. One American site shows one fitted to a canoe.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

A little off topic but in the context of adapted engines the PS Monarch, claimed to be the worlds smallest PS was adapted from a tar pump. PS Monarch- Warham Dorset. I love the term "Knowing some of the spells before heading into the forrest". Noel.

[Rob McSweeneyParticipant @robmcsweeney81205]

Harking back to my previous post – In the youtube video of the steamboat association competition for steam outboards, the winning entry has a Stuart 5A mounted horizontally on an outboard leg, and it is successfully propelling a pretty hefty boat with substantial vertical boiler and four adults on board.

[Peter Cuthbert 1Participant @petercuthbert1]

Hi Noel, Rob and fellow enthusiasts,

Thanks for your posts. I have gone quiet for a bit as I am trying to summarise all the ideas and information that has emerged from this thread. However, it has turned out that there is a whole lot more I need to learn first…

I am doing some thinking and investigation about the paddler option. There is an excellent version of the Westbury twin cylinder paddle engine here [Westbury Paddle Engine] For me, given my memories of the Bristol Queen it would need to be re-drawn as a triple, or possibly triple expansion. The file conversion app FileStar does a quite creditable conversion of PDF to DXF for those who dabble in CAD. There is lots of information to be had from the PaddleDucks Forum here [PaddleDucks]

The Steam outboard idea had crossed my mind, and is worth a look but I have a few other strands to tie up first of which the paddler idea is the biggest.

So, more later.

Regards

Pete

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You would certainly need to scale up Westbury's design as it was intended for a 6ft hull, also watch Julius' drawings as they can have details that can't be made as none are proven drawings

[Peter Cuthbert 1Participant @petercuthbert1]

Thanks to everybody who has contributed to this thread. I have now gathered together the key data items for those who may be interested. I have also made the assumption that whilst I could build the canoe, any plant would need to be bought in from elsewhere.

Summary

a) The Full Steam Launch Option

Boiler – The Mike Robinson design monotube, oil fired by pot burner, 12kg.

Engine – (i) ST Cygnet, 2.25” X 2”, 13.5 kg (Preferred option, Probability of acquisition – close to zero)

(ii) Custom built twin such as Ray Hasbrouch, < 10 kg (Second best option, Probability of acquisition – possible)

(iii) ST 5a, 2.25” X 2”, 13.5kg (Third best option, Probability of acquisition – very easy)

Propeller – Three blade 12” X 20” (May be reduced below 12” by using 4 blades and shifting the DAR from 0.4 to 0.6 – Weight = 1.7kg)

NB Drive train not yet specified or weighed

b) The Electric Poser Option

Boiler – No thoughts yet.

Engine – ST No 1, 2” X 2”, 10kg?, (Probability of acquisition – possible)

Outboard – Minn Kota Endura C2 30 12v, 6.8 kg

Leisure Battery – (Say) YBX Active Specialist & Garden Battery 12V 30Ah 330A 7.8kg

Wiring and controls extra.

c) The Paddle Steamer Option

Boiler – The Mike Robinson design monotube, oil fired by pot burner, 12kg.

Engine – Scaled up Westbury Paddle Engine. Weight unknown. (Probability of acquisition – zero)

To conclude I rather feel that the 'Full Steam Launch' option would be the best as it ticks all the boxes in terms of live steam and posing. The electric version but skipping the poser bit would actually be the cheapest route to a powered canoe although a little more than 30 Ah might be advisable (if my sums are correct).

Regards

Pete

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

It seems to me that your biggest hurdle is the lack of equipment to build your own plant. Buying a suitable boiler an engine as bespoke items will be very expensive. A lot of money would be saved by buying whatever comes up as second hand or estate items, but that way you won't always get exactly what you want.

There is quite a lot to be said for just making a start in the direction you want to go. Once you have started to make some progress, you might be surprised what shows up. With my own project, I knew when I started that my machine tools were not big enough, so I started on what I could do with what I had. When people see that you have made a good start, they will be much more likely to offer you access to their machines, whereas if you ask before they have seen what you can do they are likely to be much more cautious.

In your case, it would seem to make good sense to start with the hull, since it seems you have suitable facilities for that. At a pinch, a small hull like this can be built with just hand tools, although sanding is something where I would regard power tools as essential. At worst, if you have a finished hull and no plant, you can paddle it, row it, hang a little outboard or trolling motor on the back, and so on.

Don't forget to allow for all the ancillaries. You need space to build it and later store it, you also need some way to get it to the water. Storing it at or on the water is a lot more expensive than storing it at home, where you can also conveniently work on it. Larger boats like mine are of course more of a problem, and actually between buying a substantial boat trailer and a four wheel drive to tow it, and an 84 square metre shed in the back garden to store it and work on it, there is far more money in all of that than there is in the boat itself.

So anyway, there is no substitute for making a start.

John

[Peter Cuthbert 1Participant @petercuthbert1]

Hi John

Many thanks for the post and the sound advice therein.

I would agree with all your advice, but I am not quite in the position that you have assumed. I do have a decent collection of tools and equipment including an elderly lathe, a Clarke mill with DRO and a pile of other power and hand tools. They were all acquired over time as you suggest while I was building the full sized steam launch. That sadly will slip out of my grasp soon because the down size has meant that there is nowhere to keep it on site or locally, nor is it possible to slip up to the Lakes on a 'day out' to fix it or use it. From the new location it is a day's drive just to get there and, more to the point, my caring responsibilities mean that disappearing for several days is not possible.

The other problem which is impossible to solve is that I am running out of years. I spent too many years in building the launch and the thought of (say) two years just to build an engine would be silly. Caring means workshop time is limited. The Fairlight Project of this thread has been an exercise in finding out the best way to create a 'pocket steam launch'. All the suggestions and advice have been most useful and if circumstances permit I will implement the plan. Having all this information will mean that once started the task should be finished within six months and one will be able to enjoy steaming rather than spending time sweating in the workshop.

Regards

Pete

[Alexander Nemeth 1Participant @alexandernemeth1]

So this is anecdotal, not scientific, but have you seen the steam launch Amphora?

**LINK**

She’s 14’ powered by a 5a. It’s worth it going through the YouTube channel. The builder even made a steam turbine to generate electricity. But also, there’s a video of a speed run. Looking at it, I don’t know if I would do anything smaller than a 5a on a launch that size.

[Peter Cuthbert 1Participant @petercuthbert1]

Hi

Thanks for the post. That certainly is an amazing machine and it looks as if Mr Schaefer is a man who likes to have a boat with everything, never mind if it is a small one. From my perspective there is too much complexity and probably too much cost, not to mention all that brass to polish. However, all power to his elbow. That is the joy of this hobby, you can make it look any way you want.

Regards

Pete

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

I would be VERY wary of the prop calculations that gave you 12" X 20" ! I had 70 HP diesel on 14" X 14" and it was too coarse, used 14" X 12" Just a thought. Noel.

[Peter Cuthbert 1Participant @petercuthbert1]

Thanks for the advice Noel. I think, without going back to my notes, that the 12 X 20 was calculated on a very low prop speed, perhaps 300 RPM or less. I suspect that you diesel might have been spinning the shaft at 3 to 4 times that so I can see why it would be way too coarse.

Currently this project is getting nowhere as it is being eclipsed by my attempts to find contractors to do stuff to the down-size house and to find PV installers who are even the slightest bit interested in a £6k (ish) project. I don't know if it is because we Boomers are all spending money on our houses and all the contractors have full order books or perhaps there is a shortage of contractors this far West. I might just as well have gone off to the workshop to make something…

Regards

Pete

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

I don't know if you still have the larger boat, but if you do maybe you could come up with a trade through the Steam Boat Association. You would have a better chance of that in the UK than you would where I am anyway, here in NZ it would be unlikely for more than one steam launch to come up for sale in a year. Other than that, if you are a member, the whole run of the Funnel magazines is now available online, I have started to read the early ones and there is a bit about steam canoes in some of them. Another thing you could look up, some time back there was a steam punt described in the Model Engineer. He built a copper Yarrow style boiler for it which I think would be within the size that the Model clubs can certify. I'll see if I can find the reference, I would have all the magazines here in my collection.

Steam launch props do tend to be on the large side, with large pitch too. The large diameter is good because a large slow turning prop is more efficient, and the high pitch is necessary because of the relatively low RPM. For an example, the prop on my "Dancer" is 22 inches pitch and 22 inches in diameter. Enormous compared to what you would see on say a 120 hp outboard. I don't have any measurement of the power that the steam plant puts out, but from back of the envelope calculations it is not going to be over 10 bhp on the shaft and probably less, yet that is enough to drive Dancer along at a good 8 knots.

I think I said this already, but anyway, I would avoid the Stuart Number 1, although it is a fine engine. I have built two of them, one with reversing gear. Although they are nice, they are not really beefy enough for the continuous work in a boat. You can sneak in bigger bearings if you try, by making a new crankshaft as large as the space will allow, but the crosshead is still single sided, and the bored type like on the 5A is preferable. Some guys here in NZ made a set of castings for an engine very like the 5A, but with ball bearing mains and I think for the big end too. This makes a very sound job and they have been quite successful in a couple of boats here.

One thing that Cliff Blackestaff said in those early Funnel magazines that I think is worth repeating, don't go for a typical vertical firetube boiler, it puts too much weight up high for a canoe style hull. (The low squat type is OK) You either want a horizontal firetube (Scotch or similar) or a water tube boiler. It used to be that any weight saved with a small water tube boiler was lost in the weight of the insulation for the casing, but now that you can get ceramic fiber based insulation I think you can definitely save some weight with the water tube type. This could be helpful with a canoe. The other aspect is that a tall vertical boiler can look a bit silly in a small boat.

regards

John

[Peter Cuthbert 1Participant @petercuthbert1]

Hi John and ME friends

Many thanks for the posting and your observations.

Yes, the 'big' boat is still around but here in the UK there has been a sudden glut of boats for sale and they are going for very low prices. I don't know if you have looked at the SBA Small Ads lately but now is the time to acquire lots of steam boats and kit for some very low prices. My boat will not be joining that list until the re-fit gets finished for which I shall have to pay being so far away myself.

I have gone back to a set of drawings for a marine twin by Rudy Kouhoupt (1975) that I found on Home Workshop. Having done a few quick calcs I think I could re-draw it for building at 2.5 times larger. That would take the crank shaft up to 15mm at which size there are readily available sealed for life bearings as you mention. The cylinder block is originally specified as bronze, but it struck me that once could follow automotive practice and go aluminum with steel liners to keep the wight down. The design has the cross heads running in tubes which is useful and there is space for them to be increased over 2.5 which would allow for larger little end bearings. It is all based on stock materials so it has potential for the ham-fisted model engineer like me.

Yes, the idea of using 'model' boilers of existing designs makes sense especially since the engine would also be in the 'model' size range. I have yet to do any research on boilers, but can do that when I have done some more work on the engine design and worked out probable steam consumption.

Thanks for the tip on looking in Funnel for steam canoe articles. I do have a full set of paper Funnels so I will check the index online and see what there is available on the bookself.

Regards

Pete

[Peter Cuthbert 1Participant @petercuthbert1]

Hi Model Engineering Friends

I had not expected to activate this thread again, but life throws all sorts of things at one. In my case I have managed to purchase a Stuart Turner Cygnet, the engine that seemed to be the favourite for this application. However, it was bought sight unseen so I am somewhat disappointed. The disappointment is that it has not come with the pumps that Stuarts presumably included in the package. Thus my main reason for posting is to ask if there might be a) anybody sitting on the pumps bit of the Cygnet package that they might wish to dispose of in my direction or b) anybody who has had a successful design of pumps (minimum is a feed pump, air pump is a luxury) that would fit.

The engine was built in about 1996 and has only been steam tested and never run for any length of time. That does seem to be corroborated by the amount of compression when turned over by hand. The parts all look to be very well made but I think the maker was a Utilitarian. The engine is in no way set up as Steam Boat Porn. For me it will need to be stripped and painted, the brass polished and a wooden jacket applied to the cylinder as the very minimum.

It seems that the original owner arranged for its manufacture only to find it was too small for his boat. He kept it, as we all do, as something that might come in useful later. Now at 88 he has decided that it had to go. Of course in the negotiations I failed to ask if the pumps were still with it. There is the possibility that it never had the pumps. I notice that the Cygnet castings currently for sale on the Steam Boat Association Small Ads site does not include the reversing gear. I notice also that the ST present site has such things as reversing gear as 'options' which makes it very possible that the kit was bought without the pumps. It is a Cygnet as it has the solid flywheel and the smaller base casting.

Regards, Pete

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

They sold the Swan and Cygnet in both Non condensing and condensing versions, you got the basic engine in the non condensing kit or the pumps etc in the condensing kit so looks like yours was the basic one. Both came with reversing gear.

You might also try the Stuart Models FB group to see if anyone has the pump drawings or even contact Stuarts, I should think they could be fabricate das castings are unlikely to be available.

I have a feeling John Bertinat did a revised pump design, probably in an old ME if he did

Edited By JasonB on 26/03/2022 07:49:09

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

I may well be wrong but I seem to remember thinking that the vacuum pump looked uncommonly like an AC fuel pump as used on engines (IC) back in the 50s & 60s. The feed water pump would be easy to fabricate in 316 stainless – if you need some PM me. Good Luck Noel.

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