Stainless steel hexagon bar in whitworth head sizes

[Mark P.Participant @markp]

[Mark P.Participant @markp]

I am shortly to start renovating a 1957 Triumph Thunderbird and would like to make my own stainless nuts and bolts. I can’t seem to find hex bar in the correct sizes, there seems to be plenty of standard imperial and metric stuff about but nothing in whitworth head size. There seems to be 2 roads I can go down which is to use the nearest metric bar or go for imperial and end up using AF spanner sizes. Can anyone point me in the right direction please. I would really like to keep with whitworth spanners. I know I can buy stainless nuts and bolts in the right sizes but would much rather make my own, machining up round/square stainless to hex is an option but not the road I want to go!

Regards Mark P.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

3rd road it to mill your own hex, I do it quite often particularly for square headed stuff.

But to save you the trouble M-Machine have some Whitworth sizes in 303 & 316

[peak4Participant @peak4]

I get my stainless hex from AMB since they are just down the road from me. All stock is listed in mm, but that doesn't mean to say it's all metric.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

If you are making fasteners for a motorcycle it is worth considering the tensile strength required for the application, most of the time it will not be an issue and I have made lots of special bolts for my bike,but I did take the easy way and buy most standard bolts from Dave Middleton who also lists lots of model specific specials. I don't know if it was an urban myth but people used to steer clear of stainless wheel spindles but I suspect if there were any foundation in the story it was probably someone who made a poor material choice. I was surprised when a metallurgist friend said stainless is a very ductile material as some of the difficulties experienced when machining make you think it is tough and with the ease with which it work hardens, a strong material. His example was look at how deep you can draw a stainless sink, that is very difficult if not impossible with mild steel.

Mike

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

I picked up a boat load of Whit sized stainless at the Stafford classic show a few weeks ago. The lady on the stall did say the Whit sizes are starting to get difficult to find. I did not ask for a card from her but she will most likely be at Stafford in October. I don't know where you are based but the VMCC Founders day is in July and Banbury run at Gaydon on 18th June. There may be a stall at one of these events. I am riding at Banbury so will have a look around for a contact.

[Mark P.Participant @markp]

Thanks for the replys chaps AMB look favorite.
Mark P.

[alan-lloydParticipant @alan-lloyd]

When I restored a 1957 T100 5 years ago I bought all the bolts from d middleton, most are bscy , the tank badges are ba, and don't forget the stepped bolts for the tank mounting I did. most of these old triumphs have bent frames so get it checked first, I had a lot of help from Ace Classics, good luck

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Are stainless bolt threads rolled, like many other materials? If they are, the threads will be more durable than turned items, which is the usual case?

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Mark P. on 21/05/2017 19:09:26:
Thanks for the replys chaps AMB look favorite.
Mark P.

If you have another reason to visit Sheffield, you will find they are cheaper for collection in person, particularly if you can get by with some noggin ends.

Also for personal visits, they are quite amenable to cutting whatever length you need.

Riley's tools just down the road too, though I've not visited under the new ownership.

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Dave Middleton was my supplier of choice thirty years ago when all the fasteners on my Guzzi LeMans were replaced with Stainless. A very helpful and practical guy to deal with and supplied some raw material. If you want to turn some of the bolts, make sure that they're in a non stressed area. Dave pointed this out for the main engine/frame mounting bolts on my bike but was able to supply a pair with FORGED heads in this application. (Think grain flow rather than cutting across it to for the head/shank of the bolt). Turned new pistons for the Brembo's too.

Regards Ian.

[old AlParticipant @oldal]

I think D Middleton does whit sized ss bar. its really expensive, but invaluble if you cant find it anywhere else.

try stainless steel suppliers on the net and see what comes up. i have to buy mine in 3 mtr lengths. And dont forget to specify the right grade. SS work hardens

im builing a Triumph super cub at the moment. Its built with some triumph numbered nuts and bolts and some BSA numbered bolts (the last cubs were made at the BSA factory).The tiger cub shops dont do the BSA numbered bolts and the BSa dealers dont do triumph bolts. So I have to make bolts, i hate making bolts, i really hate making bolts.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

If the bolts required are in an area under stress, or require high tensile bolts, don't use stainless steel.

Ian S C

[John Chapman 5Participant @johnchapman5]

Ian has stated the obvious do not use stainless steel bolts, I worked in a power station stainless was used on reactor components, guys at work used stainless steel bolts when restoring motor bikes after one winter and a little bit of corrosion the bolts cracked. Stainless bolts will not stretch also only have half the strength of high tensile bolts.You are better of with high tensile bolts that are plated, if you go down the path of using stainless it needs a lubricant when doing up the nut or it will pull the thread of the bolt. The first thing taught in engineering do not mix different metals it is always bad news, I belong to a car club they use to sell stainless head studs if you were daft enough to use them they would corrode the block over time, it is easier to replace head studs the a vintage car block.

Regards John

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Circlip on 22/05/2017 09:23:11:

Dave Middleton was my supplier of choice thirty years ago when all the fasteners on my Guzzi LeMans were replaced with Stainless. A very helpful and practical guy to deal with and supplied some raw material. If you want to turn some of the bolts, make sure that they're in a non stressed area. Dave pointed this out for the main engine/frame mounting bolts on my bike but was able to supply a pair with FORGED heads in this application. (Think grain flow rather than cutting across it to for the head/shank of the bolt). Turned new pistons for the Brembo's too.

Regards Ian.

Have you still got the le Mans? I also made stainless pistons for the Brembos on my'77 Ducati 900 GTS, along with lots of other stainless bits.

Still got it, since 1979, but since bought an old Mk3 lemon as well.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Stainless fasteners are the hallmark of "over-restoration". Have you considered buying a home plating kit and salvaging the original fasteners with the zinc "copy cad" kit?

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Hopper on 22/05/2017 14:12:34:

Stainless fasteners are the hallmark of "over-restoration". Have you considered buying a home plating kit and salvaging the original fasteners with the zinc "copy cad" kit?

Not in my case, Stainless wheels and spokes too; I just hate cleaning and polishing and not wildly bothered about originality, so long as it's broadly in keeping. 

Edited By peak4 on 22/05/2017 14:17:12

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

My experience of stainless bolts is not quite the same as that of JohnChapman, but similar.

Stainless bolts can gall, and that is a real PITA. Ways to avoid it are to use different stainless grades together (303/304 bolt, 316 nut) and/or to use something like 'Duralac' which acts as a lubricant to stop galling & prevent corrosion. The company I work for uses around 20,000 A2 stainless nuts & bolts a week. Failures due to galling occur once or twice a year with those precautions. Blind holes should always be gummed up with Loctite/duralac because stainless steel is only stainless when in the presence of air – the chromium oxide is in a dynamic equilibrium with the oxygen in the surroundings, and if there is no oxygen in the local area, the oxygen is lost from the chromium oxide, and not replaced, leading to a thinner/less complete oxide layer, so corrosion is able to start. If in a blind hole, it can get wet & then there is little air, so corrosion accelerates. To stop it in a blind hole, you need the duralac/Loctite to exclude water in the same way as for a standard steel bolt.

As for strength, agreed. General A2/A4 bolts are grade 70, ie 12% weaker than a grade 8.8 bolt, and they yield at 2/3 the load. Cap head bolts are nearly twice as strong. If you are machining 303 stainless, you won't be certain of the work hardening level (unless stated on a certificate when purchased) & need to assume it's annealed. In the annealed state, they won't be much stronger than normal DIY store studding. Not a good thing!

Regards,

Richard

[Mark P.Participant @markp]

I agree with peak4 I dislike polishing too and apart from that I am renovating not restoring the bike, just doing my own thing.
Mark P.

[MadMikeParticipant @madmike]

Mark Metal Mania in Hinckley sell stainless in the Whitworth hex sizes which are the same as BSCY. If you want bolts, nuts etc made to a high quality try ACME stainless. For your Triumph try Andy Molnar for stainless parts and bolts. All can be tracked down using Google. HTH.

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Been using stainless fasteners in motorcycles for 30 odd years, inc c/head bolts. Never had a problem.

Machined wheel spindles in stainless and titanium. Never had a problem.

Always lube a thread, either steel or stainless. Snap On's Never Seize is good, average Copaslip will do the job.

Today you can buy ALUMINIUM wheel spindles for competition off road motorcycles. I'll think about that one, may give it a try…

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Unless money is no object on a motorcycle build, i'll be a Heretic (and a Cheap Charlie) and use A/F and metric on a Brit/Harley bike. On a Euro bike purely metric 'cos it's that much cheaper. If i was building a p/unit Triumph for myself i'd use A/F, i aint no originality buff. I also prefer using A/F spanners and sockets compared to Whit.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

When building the reactor for the UKs first Polaris submarine, the designers worried that stainless fittings would not be reliable and specified a chrome moly steel.

After the discovery of extensive cracks, they all had to be replaced by stainless and the time required meant the stainless had to be sourced from the US. This allowed the US to use supply of the steel as a bargaining chip to limit the access of UK inspectors to make safety inspections of US nuclear-powered subs at UK bases.

Neil

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Posted by thaiguzzi on 23/05/2017 03:39:22:

…Today you can buy ALUMINIUM wheel spindles for competition off road motorcycles. I'll think about that one, may give it a try…

No real reason why not: Something like 7075-T6 is stronger than many steels.

I was involved in stressing a runway beam setup in a box once & had to investigate making the steel beam a lot lighter. On looking at sensible proportion aluminium extrusion sections & 6082-T6 alloy I came to the conclusion that for the same reserve on ultimate strength, an aluminium one would weigh 40% that of the steel one, and for the same stiffness, it would be 50% the weight, though the section was 40% deeper. After lots of discussions, our customer was the one who lost their bottle & requested a steel runway beam, so it never got built & the weight saving had to be fought for elsewhere.

Regards,

Richard.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Posted by Hopper on 22/05/2017 14:12:34:

Stainless fasteners are the hallmark of "over-restoration". Have you considered buying a home plating kit and salvaging the original fasteners with the zinc "copy cad" kit?

I used stainless fastners on my Trident at I used it 365 days a year in those days, Cadmium plating does not last long with regular use on salted roads. I find you do not notice stainless fastners if you rest the temptation to mirror polish them all but you do notice rusty nuts and bolts ( reminds me of a good band "Dumpys Rusty Nuts&quot

Mike

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