Square holes

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

I need to make a square holed spanner for all the square bolts, as well as the ram pulley operating handle.

At present I'm using vice handles, but they are a compromise at best.

Advise please on the easiest way to make such.

I have just refurbished an Excel filing machine I bought late 2006, so that could be used to square drilled holes.

Handles are easily added.

Geoff – Carport leaks fixed! I hope that is.

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

For my Boxford shaper square bolts etc

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Seeing what you put at the end of your other post use the shaper to cut each corner in turn.

J

[Chris HeapyParticipant @chrisheapy71135]

How about drilling a round hole and filing it square? am I missing something? Very useful tool the simple file

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Posted by Chris Heapy on 06/05/2013 19:18:23:

How about drilling a round hole and filing it square? am I missing something? Very useful tool the simple file

Not missing anything Chris.

My thoughts as well, except machine aided, not muscle driven.

The Excel should take this in its stride, and it will give me an opportunity to become familiar with it.

Geoff – Coffee time

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Posted by JasonB on 06/05/2013 19:07:30:

Seeing what you put at the end of your other post use the shaper to cut each corner in turn.

I'd rather get the spanner and handle done quickly, plus I'm just not confident enough to even try this yet, but thanks for the suggestion.

I need to become familiar with the workings of a shaper before tackling something as 'delicate' as squaring a round hole.

In a year or so I may be up to doing as you suggested.

Geoff – Coffee finished. Workshop or Audiobook now?

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

I've quickly made various square spanners with a hacksaw to cut vees and arc welding the halves together Colin

[NobbyParticipant @nobby]

Hi
Dont forget when using filing machine . Use the arm fitted to hold the job down on the table . Stops the job jumping back at you when filing
Nobby

Edited By Nobby on 06/05/2013 22:40:32

[russellParticipant @russell]

to make a round hole square: the proper way.

Start with a nice hot coke fire. Take a piece of square carbon steel bar of the finished hole size, heat one end to bright red. WIth a 2 pound hammer, gently taper the end over your anvil so it will enter the round hole. Anneal and temper to straw, but for single use, just let it cool slowly.

Heat the spanner blank, drive the drift into the hole until sized correctly (multiple heats may be required for larger work). Dress off, cool, and you're done. Easy!.

(of course, the proper way to make the round hole in the first place is to punch it!).

-russ (sometime blacksmith..)

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Thanks for all the advise, much appreciated.

Colin,

I had been thinking of this method, but decided to use the Excel, again to get experience using it.

Nobby,

Did that yesterday when I had the jaws on the Excel holding files properly, then had a go on a piece of scrap.

As you say, the job would be all over the table without the arm preventing it jumping back.

Must try without the arm just to see what happens.

Will put a photo of the machine up, as I need thoughts on why the file support and hold down arms are fitted as they are.

Rus,

Life is just too short to start to learn and equip for blacksmithing, although I would dearly love to.

Have the books, as I was planning to do so in a previous life

You mention carbon steel, annealing and tempering, but what about plain MS for the spanner?

The handle is just for moving the ram to check clearances and moving the table, so no force applied.

Will take photos of progress/process and add them to my album.

Geoff – Coffee nearly finished, then workshop without a doubt.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

There is a technique using a triangular ended drill with a square guide bush (thin, made by filing).. Probably searching the ME index will find an article. The 'drill' is held in a flexible drive. Side of triangle = side of square.

I think there are some commercial versions of the above and I think films on Youtube.

The 'proper way to do it was with an Armag profiling head.

A square broach is another way. As well as the carefully made multistep broaches some blind hex and square holes are made just by wholloping a hardened tool into the hole. This method leaves teltale curles of the cut metal in the bottom of the hole. I expect the end of this tool is recessed and ground off when dead hard to leave a sharp edge.

On your Excell have you worked out what the hole half way along the over-arm is for?

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

There is a technique using a triangular ended drill with a square guide bush (thin, made by filing).. Probably searching the ME index will find an article. The 'drill' is held in a flexible drive. Side of triangle = side of square.

I think there are some commercial versions of the above and I think films on Youtube.

The 'proper way to do it was with an Armag profiling head.

A square broach is another way. As well as the carefully made multistep broaches some blind hex and square holes are made just by wholloping a hardened tool into the hole. This method leaves teltale curles of the cut metal in the bottom of the hole. I expect the end of this tool is recessed and ground off when dead hard to leave a sharp edge.

On your Excell have you worked out what the hole half way along the over-arm is for?

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

As with Chris;

File a round hole square …basic apprentice hand tool excercise; same as making a 1" cube out of 2" round bar.. to tolerance, using only a hacksaw, set of files, Engineers square & feeler gauges, part of my first 6 mo. as apprentice, then onto scraping bedways / bearings (min 25points per sq inch or else you got your ears slapped..not pc now). no mechanical assistance back then, followed by using a lathe/mill/drill,.blah, blah! , all long gone expertise, for some!… its all CNC now!

enjoy.

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

As with Chris;

File a round hole square …basic apprentice hand tool excercise; same as making a 1" cube out of 2" round bar.. to tolerance, using only a hacksaw, set of files, Engineers square & feeler gauges, part of my first 6 mo. as apprentice, then onto scraping bedways / bearings (min 25points per sq inch or else you got your ears slapped..not pc now). no mechanical assistance back then, followed by using a lathe/mill/drill,.blah, blah! , all long gone expertise, for some!… its all CNC now!

enjoy.

[AndyfParticipant @andyf]

As a temporary measure, and if you have a socket set with 12-cornered sockets (or some ring spanners likewise), see if any of them is a close fit. Not ideal, because the angles in the sockets/spanners are obtuse, so really heaving on them will round over the corners of the square bolt heads.

As an aside, I have a "four way" toolpost with square headed bolts which I use occasionally instead of my QCTP. I found that a plumber's four-armed spanner thingy with a different socket on the end of each arm has a square socket which is a perfect fit.

Andy

[AndyfParticipant @andyf]

As a temporary measure, and if you have a socket set with 12-cornered sockets (or some ring spanners likewise), see if any of them is a close fit. Not ideal, because the angles in the sockets/spanners are obtuse, so really heaving on them will round over the corners of the square bolt heads.

As an aside, I have a "four way" toolpost with square headed bolts which I use occasionally instead of my QCTP. I found that a plumber's four-armed spanner thingy with a different socket on the end of each arm has a square socket which is a perfect fit.

Andy

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Ta muchly for the responses.

Andy: I checked the sockets I have, but decided against using them for the reason you stated..

Did my first bit of serious lathe work yesterday, the last being in the mid '80s.

I prepared the round hole blanks, and had totally forgotten just how long it takes to do the most simple of turning, drilling then boring jobs.

Is it just me out of practice?

Started to use the Excel, and it's performing quite well.

A three square machine file I have has its shank similarly shaped, so how on earth is that supposed to be held in the filing machine's jaws?

My Arceurotrade fractional caliper's On/Off switch stopped working yesterday! Bought on 12th March last year and only started using it this week. Bummer or what?

"Out of warranty" response from the company, but was offered a reduced price for a replacement on sending useless one back to them for inspection.

The response surprised me somewhat from such a well respected company, and only a month out of warranty!

Geoff – Coffee then Excel time

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Ta muchly for the responses.

Andy: I checked the sockets I have, but decided against using them for the reason you stated..

Did my first bit of serious lathe work yesterday, the last being in the mid '80s.

I prepared the round hole blanks, and had totally forgotten just how long it takes to do the most simple of turning, drilling then boring jobs.

Is it just me out of practice?

Started to use the Excel, and it's performing quite well.

A three square machine file I have has its shank similarly shaped, so how on earth is that supposed to be held in the filing machine's jaws?

My Arceurotrade fractional caliper's On/Off switch stopped working yesterday! Bought on 12th March last year and only started using it this week. Bummer or what?

"Out of warranty" response from the company, but was offered a reduced price for a replacement on sending useless one back to them for inspection.

The response surprised me somewhat from such a well respected company, and only a month out of warranty!

Geoff – Coffee then Excel time

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

They have to draw a line somewhere Geoff. Me, I'd open it up and clean the switch with meths or a drop of servisol (if I still had some). It's probably only a slight build up of oxidation.

Neil

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

They have to draw a line somewhere Geoff. Me, I'd open it up and clean the switch with meths or a drop of servisol (if I still had some). It's probably only a slight build up of oxidation.

Neil

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

They have to draw a line somewhere Geoff. Me, I'd open it up and clean the switch with meths or a drop of servisol (if I still had some). It's probably only a slight build up of oxidation.

Neil

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Neil,

There is no longer the positive click feel when operating the On/Off as with the others.

It feels as if a spring has let go.

If I open it up, I have visions of itty-bitty parts escaping capture, never to be found again

Agree with a cut-off on returns, but still a bummer at a month.

Oh well, that's life.

Failed to mention that the Excel's jaws are flat, with no V in them to take a triangular shaped file shank.

Geoff – Preparing photos of "Excel" and work done on it.

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Neil,

There is no longer the positive click feel when operating the On/Off as with the others.

It feels as if a spring has let go.

If I open it up, I have visions of itty-bitty parts escaping capture, never to be found again

Agree with a cut-off on returns, but still a bummer at a month.

Oh well, that's life.

Failed to mention that the Excel's jaws are flat, with no V in them to take a triangular shaped file shank.

Geoff – Preparing photos of "Excel" and work done on it.

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Neil,

There is no longer the positive click feel when operating the On/Off as with the others.

It feels as if a spring has let go.

If I open it up, I have visions of itty-bitty parts escaping capture, never to be found again

Agree with a cut-off on returns, but still a bummer at a month.

Oh well, that's life.

Failed to mention that the Excel's jaws are flat, with no V in them to take a triangular shaped file shank.

Geoff – Preparing photos of "Excel" and work done on it.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Geoff,

The excell is supposed ot take special filing machine files 4 in long with teeth in the opposite direction to normal files so they cut on the downstroke. They have a 1/4 or 1/8 round tang. They are no longer made and stocks all used up so it is luck to find some in a car boot sale. You will have to grind part of the file to adapt it. Since the files need to be parallel not tapered the only files that come near still in production are chain saw sharpening files – not suitable for our current job.

Search the web for die filer under the following mfr names as they are all the same basic design:
Oliver
Milwaukee Milwarkee
Harvey Butterfly
Harvey model B16

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