Split Infinitives

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Georgineer on 30/05/2017 15:56:37:

… (Omar's surname was Khayyam, not Kamm.)….

Did you know that he owned the world's first inflatable sailing boat?

Come now, you must have heard of the Rubber Yacht of Omar Khayyam.

Geo.

Owwwwwww!

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

All rules come from somewhere, knowing from whence they come should surely not invalidate them.

Peter.

While we're in pedantic mode, shouldn't that be knowing whence they come? My understanding is that whence means from where.

Geo.

[Peter TuckerParticipant @petertucker86088]

Posted by Georgineer on 31/05/2017 12:24:29:

All rules come from somewhere, knowing from whence they come should surely not invalidate them.

Peter.

While we're in pedantic mode, shouldn't that be knowing whence they come? My understanding is that whence means from where.

Geo.

Hi Geo,

I was not trying to be pedantic only stating my opinion, also i have no idea as to the correctness of my use of "from whence".

Peter.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Peter Tucker on 30/05/2017 19:30:06:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 29/05/2017 20:28:18:

Posted by Peter Tucker on 29/05/2017 19:25:48:

Hi Neil,

As editor I would expect you would correct (remove) errors, not add them.

Peter.

Exactly, is it not an error to apply the rules of Latin to English?

Neil

Hi Neil,

All rules come from somewhere, knowing from whence they come should surely not invalidate them.

Peter.

So applying football's offside rule to rugby is fine, as you know where it comes from?

Neil

[Dod MoleParticipant @georgeclarihew]

Can anybody tell me what a split infinitive is, all I know about them are ' i ' s split by other letters and how does this Latin apply to Doric ?

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

The problem is that all these gurus have no authority to back them up. They are trying to impose their views on the rest of us. As I said before, if large numbers of native English speakers split their infinitives, then it is acceptable. There are thousands of instances of what these gurus would outlaw in Jane Auten, Shakespeare, the Bible etc. Are we supposed to believe they are all wrong just because some pedant says so? It is ridiculous to attempt to apply the rules of Latin to a language which owes much more to Anglo Saxon.

To quote the well known Fowler

The English-speaking world may be divided into (1) those who neither know nor care what a split infinitive is; (2) those who do not know, but care
very much; (3) those who know and condemn; (4) those who know and approve; and (5) those who know and distinguish… Those who neither know
nor care are the vast majority, and are happy folk, to be envied by the minority classes. (H. W. Fowler, A Dictionary of Modern English Usage, OUP,
1926)

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by George Clarihew on 31/05/2017 23:34:59:

Can anybody tell me what a split infinitive is …

.

Wikipedia does a pretty good job: **LINK**

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_infinitive

MichaelG.

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Nigel Bennett on 30/05/2017 13:17:20:

"This is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I will not put." – Winston Churchill.

I don't know whether this came from Churchill or not ** but I do think it's aimed at the practice of ending a sentence with a preposition rather than split infinitives …. it certainly seems to be.

(although the quotation is common, with some variation, I've never before seen it attributed to Churchill.)

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bandersnatch on 01/06/2017 01:21:31:

(although the quotation is common, with some variation, I've never before seen it attributed to Churchill.)

.

Did you miss page 3 of this thread ?

MichaelG.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

OK

I can't resit not chucking in my threppence worth any longer.

My personal opinion is that language is there to convey information. It works best if it holds the readers attension not merely by it's content but by it's style. Mere technical correctness does not do it for me and there are many instances where forming sentences in a technically correct fashion comes across as ugly. To use a clock making analogy, chapter rings using roman numerals always form the 4 as IIII and not IV as it balances the width of the 8 being VIII.

It's not technically correct but in that instance it looks nicer.

Dropping the odd formal word into sentences can also feel ugly. I personally would not write the word commence unless it suited the entire sentence. 'Let proceedings commence' sounds OK, but I commenced the project with the cylinder casting doesn't fit somehow. It's a kind of change of voice half way through a line that does it I suppose so that the text seems to jarr or lose its flow.

I think it fitting that the passive voice is used to describe a standard proceedure where all reference to the individual is removed and the process alone is described. This approach can however be less helpfull when descibing an operation we have carried out where the reader is interested in what was in the mind of the person carrying out the proceedure as well as what the basic steps were.

Personal comments within a description add to the entertainment value as well as being informative. One of my favourites is a sentence by George Thomas when describing the adjustment to the engaugement of his headstock dividing head suggests that something of an active imagination is required in order to do this by feel. You can almost hear him say it with a sort of sardonic chuckle.

I am not in any way an expert on English but I do read prolifically. Personally then I feel that style trumps correctness. If you wish to clothe your piece in colloquial language or be more formal it's entirely your choice. I think it's best, particularly on these pages, to use your own voice as that will be more natural. If others don't like it then they can always rewrite it to their own satisfaction or indeed translate the whole thing into Latin.

Best regards Martin

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by duncan webster on 31/05/2017 23:40:42:

Those who neither know

nor care are the vast majority, and are happy folk, to be envied by the minority classes. (H. W. Fowler, A Dictionary of Modern English Usage, OUP,
1926)

Hear, hear! I think this sums up the situation admirably, it's our language just as much as theirs.

Michael W

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 01/06/2017 06:34:59:

Did you miss page 3 of this thread ?

Very probably (is that bad English?) …. I fell asleep somewhere in there

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

[Dod MoleParticipant @georgeclarihew]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 01/06/2017 00:45:49:

Posted by George Clarihew on 31/05/2017 23:34:59:

Can anybody tell me what a split infinitive is …

.

Wikipedia does a pretty good job: **LINK**

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_infinitive

MichaelG.

Thanks Michael but after reading your Link  and it is clear as mud to me

Edited By George Clarihew on 02/06/2017 22:06:38

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

As this thread is becoming increasingly silly, GeorgeC might at least have indulged us with a Clerihew

**LINK**

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by George Clarihew on 02/06/2017 22:04:52:

Thanks Michael but after reading your Link and it is clear as mud to me

.

Then count yourself lucky, George

You will neither know, nor care, whether it is right 'to go boldly' or 'to boldly go'

Be content … it's all pretentious tosh anyway.

MichaelG.

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

It is vitally important to get you split your infinitives welded up before further damage is caused. One minute it is just a split infinitive. And the next minute, you will be starting a sentence with a conjunction…and it is down hill from there.

For a complete treatise on common grammar errors (in a humorous vein, of course), see:

http://www.creativeteachingsite.com/humorgrammar.htm

[charadamParticipant @charadam]

Clerihew alert!!!!!!!!!!!

President Trump

Tweeted covfefe

The world looking on

Questioned whohehe?

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Tony Jeffree on 05/06/2017 23:37:50:

It is vitally important to get you split your infinitives welded up before further damage is caused. One minute it is just a split infinitive. And the next minute, you will be starting a sentence with a conjunction…and it is down hill from there.

For a complete treatise on common grammar errors (in a humorous vein, of course), see:

http://www.creativeteachingsite.com/humorgrammar.htm

Even worse, you could end up with a dangling modifier. Quite embarrassing to be sure.

[John FlackParticipant @johnflack59079]

One can blame the educational system for the decline in writing standards but very little is said about reading standards and comprehension. See what you understand by the following.

Forestress, redial, bedrape, inter……….all may not be as it 'seems' 🙄

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by John Flack on 06/06/2017 08:35:09:

One can blame the educational system for the decline in writing standards but very little is said about reading standards and comprehension. See what you understand by the following.

Forestress, redial, bedrape, inter……….all may not be as it 'seems' 🙄

I don't think you can. The real cause lies in the decline in importance of writing as a primary communication channel. It has become a niche skill and will probably remain so as long as one of the primary aims of technology is to reduce the requirement for it.

[HowiParticipant @howi]

A split infinitive – is what you get when, riding a bike, standing on the pedals and a foot slips off. I can still feel the pain !

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

That's a split fundament.

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by Gordon W on 06/06/2017 09:19:21:

That's a split fundament.

Whatever it is, it is a pain in the a$$

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by charadam on 06/06/2017 00:51:06:

Clerihew alert!!!!!!!!!!!

Be alert!

Britain needs lerts!

Neil

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