Split Infinitives

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Just editing an article and the author has (correctly) use the expression:

"to mark accurately a round bar".

Now I would bet 99% of us would say "to accurately mark a round bar".

I'm seriously minded to swap in the split infinitive, which I would say is better English, whatever the Latin-gorged Victorian pedants would say!

Neil

(Brought to you courtesy of South African Warwick Cabernet Sauvignon)

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 28/05/2017 22:36:57

[HacksawParticipant @hacksaw]

There should be a D on the end of "use"… Ed

Edited By Hacksaw on 28/05/2017 22:46:28

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

Since the magazine is not written in Latin, it would not be appropriate to apply Latin grammar rules. In English it is permissible to boldly split the occasional infinitive, the main guide being whether or not it sounds awkward.

Have you tried any of the NZ wines? I understand there are some quite good ones these days.

John

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by John Olsen on 28/05/2017 22:50:13:

Since the magazine is not written in Latin, it would not be appropriate to apply Latin grammar rules. In English it is permissible to boldly split the occasional infinitive, the main guide being whether or not it sounds awkward.

Have you tried any of the NZ wines? I understand there are some quite good ones these days.

John

New rule… all overseas article submissions must be accompanied by a bottle of red…

[Adrian GilesParticipant @adriangiles39248]

Villa Maria Sauvignon Blanc is our tipple of choice

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Split infinitives, very nasty! I think you had better see a Doctor urgently.

[Simon Williams 3Participant @simonwilliams3]

I guess it depends what effect the author is trying to achieve – if he is trying to stress the accuracy of his marking I could accept your "to mark accurately" or (under protest ) your split infinitive (eugh!!). By all means play with the poetry of the language to make an effect.

However, on the face of it I would rather he was "to mark a round bar accurately".

Rgds Simon

Edited By Simon Williams 3 on 28/05/2017 23:14:49

[HacksawParticipant @hacksaw]

I was tasked with selling a relatives Porsche 911 last year..I thought we could get more if it had an MOT ..

Now i'm pretty pally with the local tester, so we trailered it there (as it was a bit rough and no road insurance ..)

and I could sense a bit of hostility from him when he saw the rust, but it wasn't structural (honest ! ) and it scraped a new ticket..

But the advisory he wrote cracked me up !!

The wing…/ / The advisory ; "Front wing starting to corrode , slightly "

Slightly LOL!!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Simon Williams 3 on 28/05/2017 23:14:18:

I guess it depends what effect the author is trying to achieve – if he is trying to stress the accuracy of his marking I could accept your "to mark accurately" or (under protest ) your split infinitive (eugh!!). By all means play with the poetry of the language to make an effect.

The Oxford Dictionary supports my POV, only avoid where you daren't risk upsetting a pedant

en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/split-infinitives

N.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

If it sounds right to a native english speaker it is right.

And Argentinian reds are pretty good as well

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 28/05/2017 22:36:29:

Just editing an article and the author has (correctly) use the expression:

"to mark accurately a round bar".

Now I would bet 99% of us would say "to accurately mark a round bar".

Over 'ere it would be "to put a mark where you want it on on a round bar, eh?"

Some of the Chile Reds hit the spot, some say that they go well with Poutine – but I've (honestly) never tried Poutine. (google it, if you dare)

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

compromise: To mark a round bar accurately.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Hacksaw on 28/05/2017 22:46:10:

There should be a D on the end of "use"… Ed

.

… or preferably a d

MichaelG

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 28/05/2017 22:36:29:

Just editing an article and the author has (correctly) use the expression:

"to mark accurately a round bar".

Now I would bet 99% of us would say "to accurately mark a round bar".

Absolutely. In spoken English there is no general taboo on splitting infinitives. So if you want your written English to not sound stilted ( ), split the odd infinitive.

If you did want to get all pedantic, it would be more correcter to say "accurately to mark a round bar" so the adverb precedes the transitive verb phrase in the normal (for pedants) manner. But how stilted and pedantic does that sound? Correct: very.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by duncan webster on 28/05/2017 23:32:02:

If it sounds right to a native english speaker it is right.

 

Warwick Cabernet Sauvignon sounds quite all right to this native speaker.

Edited By Hopper on 29/05/2017 08:51:26

Edited By Hopper on 29/05/2017 08:52:21

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Hopper on 29/05/2017 08:49:08:

.

… it would be more correcter to say …

.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 29/05/2017 09:11:45:

Posted by Hopper on 29/05/2017 08:49:08:

.

… it would be more correcter to say …

.

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

With all this red wine you lot seem to be consuming, there's a real danger of ending up with spilt infinitives!

John

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Omar Kamm (Byline 'The Pedant' ) has an excellent review in The Times (Saturday May 20th 2017) of Sir Harold Evans's new Style Guide 'Do I Make Myself Clear?'

After highlighting numerous errors of style and fact the review concludes 'Thankfully I'm able, through this column, to let Evan's publishers (Little, Brown) know they haven't got away from it and that, even at this late stage, a sense of shame ought to persuade them to withdraw the book from sale.'

Sir Harold Evans was once editor of The Times and I would have expected him to know what he was talking about. Apparently not. Quite a few style guides don't cut the mustard even if the locals love 'em. For example, 'Strunk and White' doesn't go down well outside the USA.

In his review Mr Kamm may have put his finger on a fundamental problem when it comes to defining good style. He points out that whilst many of the books referenced in Mr Evan's bibliography are written by grammarians, none of them are by a linguist. As English has multiple roots many of it's grammatical rules have dubious foundations. In that situation linguistics can matter much more than grammar.

In writing I try my best to make sense. Reading my own efforts back a week or two later is painful. Quite often I find myself obscure, and being obscure is far more sinful than the odd split infinitive!

Dave

Edit. removed automatic smiley…

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 29/05/2017 10:27:49

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

I can recommend this one from one of our local vinyards. Although for daily drinking we stick with their 5l boxes of vin de table at about €2.50/litre. Still 14.5% so we don't care if our infinitives are split. Unfortunately prices here have been rising since the Chinese have discovered our wines.

Russell

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 29/05/2017 10:27:15:

For example, 'Strunk and White' doesn't go down well outside the USA.

In earlier days, passive sentences were deliberately introduced to annoy Word's grammar checker

N.

[LambtonParticipant @lambton]

I thought the silly season started in August!

Seriously the only important thing is for the words to communicate, to the reader, exactly what the writer intended in a clear and unambiguous way. The KISS principle should apply.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Lambton on 29/05/2017 11:46:05:

I thought the silly season started in August!

Seriously the only important thing is for the words to communicate, to the reader, exactly what the writer intended in a clear and unambiguous way. The KISS principle should apply.

Spot on. But in the spirit of the silly season, beware! KISS is an abbreviation of 'Knights In Satan's Service'. Their KISS principles aren't respectable.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 29/05/2017 10:27:15:

Omar Kamm (Byline 'The Pedant' ) has an excellent review in The Times (Saturday May 20th 2017) of Sir Harold Evans's new Style Guide 'Do I Make Myself Clear?'

After highlighting numerous errors of style and fact the review concludes 'Thankfully I'm able, through this column, to let Evan's publishers (Little, Brown) know they haven't got away from it and that, even at this late stage, a sense of shame ought to persuade them to withdraw the book from sale.'

Oh dear. Is there no end to it? (The rough red, that is.) The Pedant's name is Oliver Kamm, not Omar. (Omar's surname was Khayyam, not Kamm.). And if Sir Harry's surname is Evans, as in the first par, the possessive case should be Evans's in the second par, and not "Evan's".

That said, the thing with style guides is just that: they are a guide — to style. And style is subjective and variable. Most of the major newspapers and publishing houses have their own style guide, each with its own variations. Style may vary from publication to publication, but if the newspaper or publisher sticks to the one style guide, at least there is consistency within their own product. They recognize that as language is a living, changing thing there can be no single definitive set of universal rules.

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