Some VERY interesting LED modules

[Anonymous]

That is good; thanks Michael.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Jouke van der Veen on 13/01/2023 19:52:44:

Hallo Robert G8RPI,

The dip-switch values for the EUP30A and EUP30D are the same, so to see.

650mA/9-45V and 700mA/9-43V for both.

And I found in a datasheet that the EUP30A is dimmable by means of a passive resistor (simple potmeter?).

Somewhere else it was said that you should not apply a led driver above approx. 80% of its maximum power, higher would have a negative influence on its lifetime.

Well I guess that depends on the quality of the unit. Any decent unit should have a decent lifespan at full load. I cetaninly would not routinely derate equiment by 20%. A quality unit will already have adequate margins. Generally for any electronic component de-rating it will improve it's reliability / lifespan but there are exceptions. And it's not just liftime and load. Efficency tends to be lower with less than full load and ambient temperature also lowers life. If yo uknow the ambient is likely to be high that is a reason to consider a higher rated unit.
Unfortunatly a lot of lower cost (compared to top brand similar item) equipent tend to base their ratings on the "absolute maximum" ratings of their main internal components. without refence to other considerations.
A classic mistake, nnot just with cheap makes, is the gold anodised metal clad power resistors e.g a 25W 25 ohm WH25. It's 25 W so you can put 1 A through it right (P = I squared times R)? Yes, but only if it is on a 23cm square 1mm thick aluminium plate at a 25 degree C ambient. Even at that the resistor will be at over 140 degrees C.

Robert G8RPI.

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Here is a link to a mains powered LED driver. I have never used this supplier but I am tempted to order one.

lMAAOSw4qFiY5tO&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4J4rVp%2FK3ZcF2lBT2Bc%2F7lwrMr%2Bjz7VIv4uLLsUqSrBAcweCy%2B1RYDjPHal%2BiuzvC2VGkCpvkeRoJAJYB2N%2FfeycYyFAsDXsKClTCvZ7E5ZrBykuxkwuEiDuRUeEMf7%2BpynvxPsv7kzuer2QQA6i80tH2CcjnSy640jylMjLIVnbiQaJRewmURsSuk2crbzI1K0ilnFgB%2B7GBayucwYGyJISjrDmvAfoh0p5awmfsOq5%2BGSOyd%2B4wgf9somBBGrfo%2FTi7QHzn3LESLVFRyWdyk%2FKwftwreUkf28EW7TkX05v%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5bM1YS2YQ”>https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195351986113?hash=item2d7be2bfc1:glMAAOSw4qFiY5tO&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4J4rVp%2FK3ZcF2lBT2Bc%2F7lwrMr%2Bjz7VIv4uLLsUqSrBAcweCy%2B1RYDjPHal%2BiuzvC2VGkCpvkeRoJAJYB2N%2FfeycYyFAsDXsKClTCvZ7E5ZrBykuxkwuEiDuRUeEMf7%2BpynvxPsv7kzuer2QQA6i80tH2CcjnSy640jylMjLIVnbiQaJRewmURsSuk2crbzI1K0ilnFgB%2B7GBayucwYGyJISjrDmvAfoh0p5awmfsOq5%2BGSOyd%2B4wgf9somBBGrfo%2FTi7QHzn3LESLVFRyWdyk%2FKwftwreUkf28EW7TkX05v%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5bM1YS2YQ

I could not get the link inserted in the normal way. So the ebay item number is 195351986113

Les.

Edited By Les Jones 1 on 14/01/2023 12:46:24

Edited By Les Jones 1 on 14/01/2023 12:50:28

Edited By Les Jones 1 on 14/01/2023 12:55:10

Edited By Les Jones 1 on 14/01/2023 12:59:11

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

'Blocked site' on my server Les

Regards Ian.

Works now, original "Led driver" didn't.

Edited By Circlip on 14/01/2023 12:52:09

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

For your future convenience, Les

All you need from that massive hyperlink is what I have outlined here, in green

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Everything else there is ‘tracking’ which describes your journey [to those who are tracking your activity.

MichaelG.

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Edit: __ Thanks for the link … That’s a very good price

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 14/01/2023 13:28:18

[Jouke van der VeenParticipant @joukevanderveen72935]

Perhaps a good price but what about quality? Further, no dimming function.

And perhaps low price is compensated by costs for postage, at least to The Netherlands.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

You WILL want dimming with these LED Modules!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 14/01/2023 16:23:43:

You WILL want dimming with these LED Modules!

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Not for my originally-intended use.

But yes, it will be generally useful to have dimming available.

MichaelG.

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

I have a couple of these LED modules and what has surprised me is the amount of heat that is radiated forward by the LED array. Initially I noticed the radiation when I used my hand as a shield from the light. While not in any way or form a definitive measurement within 5 – 10 seconds a piece of black dense foam material held about 1cm in front the LED module began to melt and smoke but the back panel on the module had barely begun to warm. I wonder what the ratio of radiated heat and conducted heat is and how much will this affect the size of any heat sink required. Having seen what happened to the foam it would be advisable to check that there nothing close to a working module that could be melted or catch fire.

Martin

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

That’s very interesting, Martin … and a useful warning !

I would hypothesise that the heat is actually being produced at the back of each LED [because that’s what they do] and some of it is radiated forward by the backplate cum circuit-board … more noticeable than usual because of the very slim construction.

It looks like some serious heat-sinking will be required.

MichaelG.

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Edit: __ I will probably use these on my first pair, and see how they do:

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/heatsinks/0271870

[ mainly because I already  have them ]

… much cheaper ‘reasonable approximations’ could be knocked-up from pieces of aluminium channel.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 14/01/2023 19:35:31

[Jouke van der VeenParticipant @joukevanderveen72935]

That’s quite a big heat sink! And Robert’s calculation showed that a 1.77K/W would be needed, so even bigger.

I am thinking of replacing a dimmable “up-lamp” now fitted with something like a 150W 118mm r7s halogen bulb.

This lamp creates a lot of heat but no heatsink is needed.

When mounting a led module as discussed here a big heatsink will be needed. I doubt I can find space for this.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Jouke van der Veen on 14/01/2023 20:06:35:

That’s quite a big heat sink! And Robert’s calculation showed that a 1.77K/W would be needed, so even bigger.

[…].

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No, Jouke … that’s the wrong way round

0.5 Kelvin temperature rise per Watt needs a bigger heatsink than 1.77 Kelvin temperature rise per Watt

MichaelG.

[Jouke van der VeenParticipant @joukevanderveen72935]

Sorry for my stupid thinking. I should do better!

It is normal physics, so to say.

Edited By Jouke van der Veen on 14/01/2023 20:29:30

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

No problem, Jouke … it’s an easy mistake to make

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 14/01/2023 13:23:56:

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Edit: __ Thanks for the link … That’s a very good price

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I’ve found the data-sheet : **LINK**

https://dammedia.osram.info/im/bin/osram-dam-12454646/Datasheet_QCS_QI_11_1CH_EN.pdf

MichaelG.

[DogboyParticipant @dogboy]

Hello Everyone,

In the past we have used the Luxdrive constant current drivers to run these modules. All though they are 'only' 350mA they work very well and the modules are still very bright. These little Boostpuck drivers are small, around an inch square with and has adjustable current pot on the bottom.

They can be run from a 5V to 28V input with a max V out of 48V. This are ideal for running these modules at 5, 12, 24 Volt etc

Luxdrive model number is: 4015-D-I-350, from what I remember they are fairly low cost.

I have attached some pics of the drivers and also, just out of interest, I have attached some pics of some hard anodised enclosures that were made specifically for a one off project. These had glass fronts and also had two o-rings to seal the module making it totally waterproof. Unfortunately, these are not available but may have the drawings somewhere.

Thanks

Paul

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Dogboy on 16/01/2023 10:01:43:

Hello Everyone,

[…]

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Welcome, Paul … and thanks for a great first post !!

MichaelG.

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

For me, I think I have power supplies sorted but I'm still unsure about heatsink requirements. One of the things that attracted me to these arrays was the possibility of making low-profile lights – from the data sheet:

"One example of an innovative application of the OrionTM is Plessey’s ability to re-create an
LED version of the AR111, for a track spot, at less than 25mm in depth including LEDs, optics
and a heatsink. Further information can be found in the OrionTM application notes."

It sounds like other contributors to this thread already have heatsinks which are up to the job (possibly bulkier than Plessey suggest), but I haven't, so will have to buy or make them myself. Probably the latter.

I haven't yet found Plessey's application notes, which I had hoped might shed light.

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 14/01/2023 12:34:37:

[…]

A classic mistake, nnot just with cheap makes, is the gold anodised metal clad power resistors e.g a 25W 25 ohm WH25. It's 25 W so you can put 1 A through it right (P = I squared times R)? Yes, but only if it is on a 23cm square 1mm thick aluminium plate at a 25 degree C ambient. Even at that the resistor will be at over 140 degrees C.

Robert G8RPI.

Robert, that sounds like you have a formula for the heat dissipation from a flat plate of aluminium given (I'm guessing) a point source. I've been making some simple calculations of radiative dissipation because that's all I have in my toolbox. For your putative 23cm square sheet at 140C and ambient 25C I get a dissipation of around 120W, but that's assuming that the whole sheet is at 140 degrees, and ignores convective heat loss. So unrealistic assumptions, but not a crazy result. If you have a formula it would save a lot of head scratching.

It may well be that I'm worrying unduly – Paul's interesting photos (welcome to the forum from me too Paul) don't show a heatsink other than the housing.

Robin.

 

Edited By Robin Graham on 17/01/2023 00:47:08

Edited By Robin Graham on 17/01/2023 01:00:21

Edited By Robin Graham on 17/01/2023 01:02:40

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Robin Graham on 17/01/2023 00:46:31:

[…]

It may well be that I'm worrying unduly – Paul's interesting photos (welcome to the forum from me too Paul) don't show a heatsink other than the housing.

Robin.

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I would posit that Pail neatly side-stepped the problem of heat dissipation by under-running the LEDs.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Another member of the family : **LINK**

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjxttTDis78AhUVRsAKHUpKDE0QFnoECAkQAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic6.arrow.com%2Faropdfconversion%2Fb9ae5dcc185c2186e4f432f726450770ca23f96f%2F407866088439439plws1000c0-series-orion-mini-beam-forming-.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1RqxV_l1QEQLjmEcqNK59E

Sorry about the weird hyperlink

Some useful plots included.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

 

 

EUREKA !

THE APPLICATION NOTE :

**LINK**

https://www.mouser.jp/pdfdocs/PLWS3000-Series-Orion-Beam-Forming-Module-Application-Note.pdf

MichaelG.

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Edit: __ It’s well-presented, and very informative.

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 17/01/2023 07:56:16

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Thanks Michael for the last link. It seems to contradict the datasheet regarding polarity and the use of heat sink compound.

Les.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Les Jones 1 on 17/01/2023 09:41:33:

Thanks Michael for the last link. It seems to contradict the datasheet regarding polarity and the use of heat sink compound.

Les.

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It does indeed

I suspect that the datasheet was written for a wider audience, and is therefore more ‘risk-averse’

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 14/01/2023 13:23:56:

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Edit: __ Thanks for the link … That’s a very good price

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Units arrived today … and the mystery of the electrical terminations is solved

Hiding under the plastic cover is this:

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Note: the ideal implement for opening the cover is on my Swiss Army Knife

MichaelG.

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

The two of these that I ordered also arrived today. I first tested one with a 64 ohm resistive load and the voltage across this was 44 volts. (Which is a current of 687.5 mA
Here is a picture of the inside just using the flatbed scanner. (The main cover is removed in the same way as the terminal cover by pressing down on the place where the clips are with a small screwdriver.)

I notice that the price of these drivers has now gone up to £7.00.

Les.

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