Smokebox casing temperature

[Howard SnowdenParticipant @howardsnowden92695]

Has anyone measured what the temperature of a smokebox casing is of a working loco, I am looking for a number please C or F. Thanks, Howard

[Howard SnowdenParticipant @howardsnowden92695]

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

I would consider 400c a good starting point. Noel

[Howard SnowdenParticipant @howardsnowden92695]

Thanks for your reply Noel.

Following some further research, a model engineer reported that he measured the outside casing of 23 locos and has quoted a range of 250 to 400 deg F from measurements he had taken. This range converts to 121 and 204 deg C respectively. He qualified his figures by saying the measurements were taken when the locos were stationary and will be higher when running on load.

There are of course a number of other factors, the CV of coal being used, the load, the measuring device accuracy and ambient temperature.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Be an interesting thing to study. The tubes are cooled by water boiling and the engine consuming steam to do work. If the tubes were 100% efficient, the smoke-box gases would be at boiler water temperature, at 150psi about 185°C. Impossible to be 100% efficient, so the smoke-box will be hotter, depending on how much heat the whole engine loses by radiation and convection.

The tubes cool exhaust gases less efficiently when the blast is on because the increased vacuum causes combustion gases to flow faster, allowing heat less time to pass through the tube wall into the water. Therefore the smoke-box of a labouring engine with blast will be hotter than a cruising engine.

I've an account somewhere of the smoke-box of a full-size engine being seen to glow dim red, which must be at least 410°C. It was pulling a heavy load up an incline after dark.

As model sized locomotives can't be well insulated and have a large surface area compared with their volume, the rest of the engine will keep the smoke-box cool. And as models are rarely thrashed up long steep hills, their smoke-boxes are unlikely to get as hot as a full-size might.

Assuming coal rather than Oxy-Propane, 120°C to 400°C seems a likely range, but I guess very high temperatures would be unusual, perhaps only the result of protracted bad driving.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 12/08/2023 22:15:27

[Howard SnowdenParticipant @howardsnowden92695]

Thanks for your thoughts Dave.

Also, the distribution of heat around the periphery of the smokebox will, like the boiler shell, not be evenly distributed. The top of the smokebox will be hotter than the bottom.

Howard

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Not many models work at 150 psi. Jim Ewins actually measured temperature of gas inside a smoke box, I think the results are reported in one of Martin Evans's books. Otherwise Martin Johnson's articles in ME might give some guidance. If someone had one of those non contact pyrometer gadgets it would be easy to clamp it to a bracket and measure on a working model loco. Or clamp a thermocouple to the smoke box is probably easier

Edited By duncan webster on 12/08/2023 22:22:49

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

My 6" traction engine would be similar to Howard's measurements. 120-200 deg C. (Measured with a laser temperature meter).  There is no lagging/insulation around the boiler barrel, only a 10mm air gap and the steel covers only get to about 50C. Cold enough to hold your hand on them.

Edited By Paul Lousick on 12/08/2023 23:15:44

[Martin Shaw 1Participant @martinshaw1]

Dave wrote "I've an account somewhere of the smoke-box of a full-size engine being seen to glow dim red, which must be at least 410°C."

This will almost certainly be caused by char igniting and burning in the smokebox, caused by an ill fitting smokebox door permitting air entering and promoting combustion, rather than the effect of exhaust gases. I suspect that this would be pretty unlikely in a small scale model. The sheer volume of material needed over an extended period of time is never going to be achieved, operator fatigue will set in long before then.

Regards

Martin

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

I have not seen a smoke box glowing red but on a 4NHP Fowler (weighs 10 tons), the lagging timbers under the covers were charred slightly at their ends near the smoke box. That was after a 220 mile road run over 4 days and only stopping every 2 hours for 15 minutes each day to re-fuel and change drivers. My model engine never works that hard.

 

Edited By Paul Lousick on 13/08/2023 08:36:31

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

RH&DR locos that have run over the Ravenglass and Eskdale tend to return to their flat homeland with charred smokebox doors.

This is caused by prolonged hard work over undulating terrain and an unavoidable build up of char / ash in the smoke box between cleaning sessions.

So the same will be true for any steam loco that works hard for long periods. The blast will pull hot gas and ash through the tubes and deposit it in the smokebox until the ash builds up and burns the paint on the door.

In the same way, any paint on the air cooled exhaust manifold of a hard worked internal combustion engine does not stay intact for long, once the engine is put to work.

Howard

[Howard SnowdenParticipant @howardsnowden92695]

Thanks for all your responses.

I should have mentioned in my original post, the reason for my question re-temperature of the smokebox casing, is that i am considering having my smokebox for my 71/4" GWR King, powder coated rather than painted.

Many thanks, Howard

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Do not ( unless there is some cast iron guaratee ) use powder coat ! VHT paint is good to much higher temps than any body has mantioned. Noel.

[Howard SnowdenParticipant @howardsnowden92695]

Noel, thanks for your advice. I did have some doubts on this, hence my question. I think the powder coating temp is too close to the temperature that can be experienced.

Thanks, Howard.

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