Small saw. Proxxon or something else

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

@Peter Cook 6 – yes, an angle grinder with a 1mm cutting blade sounds good to me.
So far I can't find anything to turn it into anything resembling a circular saw.

Searching or "Angle grinder" seems to turn up machines that are for much larger thickness of grinding-cutting blade.

The alignment of a saw like Proxxon Mitre Saw KGS 80 is such that you can't cut long thin strips of material from a sheet in the way that you can with a circular saw.  i.e. It's only useful for doing cuts of short length. 

 

Edited By John Smith 47 on 21/04/2021 14:59:11

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Wait, back to the Proxxon FET Table Saw

**LINK**
(7000 rpm, 200w, 6Kg)​
I see it can handle blades of 50 mm or 80 mm, with 10mm bore size.

So if I could find a cutting disk that fits that would probably do me.

 

It looks like this should fit:
"Proxxon 1 x Cutting Disc to suit KGS80 mitre saw 28729"

**LINK**

"Corundum-bound and shatter-proof.
For cutting alloyed and non-alloyed steel, stainless steel and non-ferrous metals.
Also suitable for wood and plastics."

Sounds perfect, no?
(Unless anyone can suggest a table saw better than the Proxxon FET Table Saw??)

EDIT
I'm very tempted by the Rutland "Mini Table Saw" with a 1mm Corundum disc

https://www.rutlands.com/sp+sawing-power-saws-mini-table-saws-mini-table-saw-rutlands+rw1073#nogo

It's obviously no designed to be a metal cutting machine. And I just got an email back from they saying:

"As a unit designed for the hobbyist (craftsman/jewellery maker/etc,) this is not designed for the cutting of steel and attempting to do so even with a specialised blade may put excess strain on the motor causing permanent damage."

But maybe I'll just cut slowly and take my chances. It's only £199,  whereas the Proxxon FET Table Saw is nearly twice the cost (£380.98)!

 

Edited By John Smith 47 on 21/04/2021 15:47:00

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 21/04/2021 02:56:24:

and faster than is possible with a good hacksaw.

I recently needed to cut some 0.10mm steel, which I needed to keep perfectly flat. The metal was way too thin for a hacksaw – the teeth just made total mess. I tried a nibbler and even a pair of scissor but they both made a mess of the flat surface.

The only thing that worked was a small abrasive cutting disk. Sparks everywhere of course, but the final surface was dead flat after a little de-burring.

It is for a domestic environment and I don't a dedicated space. So any machine needs to be portable.

Hi John,

Why do you have a speed requirement, volume of work or time available?

The tile cutter you mention in your later post are very good for tiles (as intended). The blade will last for ages as long as water is always present at the cut. I have used one to cut 6mm off the edge of a 600mm long tile so long runs are not an issue.

Cutting discs are very noisy and throw sparks a long way. They can also melt their way into the surface of window glass. Any 100mm or 115mm metal cut off flat blade will fit any angle grinder that takes the same size blade even the 1mm thick blades. There are made of the same stuff as the 80mm blade you mention. They are also deafening inside the house much like a toothed circular saw.

I hesitate to suggest this due to cost and would advise a trip to Machine Mart to inspect the one you actually buy. You can roll a 100mm strip 3mm steel with one if you have to. The shear has only a very slight angle so the result is a straight and flat cut, but only 1mm in steel though. It needs careful set up before it will work properly. You may find the bender useful at some point. The machine has the advantage of making no noise and not using electricity

Edited By Dave Halford on 21/04/2021 15:49:32

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

@Dave Halford – No, I don't have any significant speed/volume of work requirement. However the slower a 'grinding type' cutting disk spins more it will heat up rather than cleanly cut the metal.

Re the "QEP Diamond Wheel Wet Tile Cutter 450W"
I just thought that 2950 rpm would be painfully slow and would fail to remove metal.
However looking again, I see it has are larger diametre blade: 180mm

Now, I can't quite remember the formula for cutting speed, but I suspect that it wouldn't be quivalent to my little 20,000 rpm proxxon hand drill spinning a 25mm disk. (But possibly I am incorrect??)

I don't mind the noise (I put wax ear-plugs in when necessary). A few sparks don't matter. Not unless the device is make of plastic?!

Clarke SBR305 is an interesting suggestion… but only for if/when we go into small-scale production. The sheers appear to be sufficiently shallow that the steel sheet would hopefully spring back into being dead-flat.

But I don't think I'm going to need those rollers and apart from costing £239, it's a beast weighing 43Kg (Dims: 39 x55 x39cm) and I don't have space for it.

Edited By John Smith 47 on 21/04/2021 17:06:25

Edited By John Smith 47 on 21/04/2021 17:08:27

[Stuart Munro 1Participant @stuartmunro1]

John, and everyone else,

This is a real problem for beginners at engineering like me. Cutting strips of material be it brass, steel or aluminium is essential yet challenging. So I too have gone through all the permutations. A Floridian called Jim Byrnes makes what is probably the best wood modellers table saw on the planet (certainly not the best beer on the planet if he hails from the USA! to misquote an old advert). It comes with a range of optional blades which I suspect but would need to confirm, include metal cutting blades.

2 problems – its hyper expensive top import, like twice the cost of a Proxxon FET – and I'm not sure it cuts metal, just suspect it does, but will enquire.

If only there were a UK importer, I guess bulk buying would enable lower shipping costs which are half of the UK total for a 1 off!

Stuart

[Roger BParticipant @rogerb61624]

What thickness of steel are you planning to cut? I have seen 0.1mm mentioned.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by Stuart Munro 1 on 21/04/2021 17:07:25:

John, and everyone else,

This is a real problem for beginners at engineering like me. Cutting strips of material be it brass, steel or aluminium is essential yet challenging. So I too have gone through all the permutations. A Floridian called Jim Byrnes makes what is probably the best wood modellers table saw on the planet (certainly not the best beer on the planet if he hails from the USA! to misquote an old advert). It comes with a range of optional blades which I suspect but would need to confirm, include metal cutting blades.

2 problems – its hyper expensive top import, like twice the cost of a Proxxon FET – and I'm not sure it cuts metal, just suspect it does, but will enquire.

If only there were a UK importer, I guess bulk buying would enable lower shipping costs which are half of the UK total for a 1 off!

Stuart

As I mentioned earlier maybe the little proxon bandaw would suit you better.

Proxxon Micromot MBS 240/E Bandsaw.

regards Martin

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Jim Byrnes's stuff certainly looks entirely wonderful. Good to see something better-made than Proxxon! It's certainly not cheap though, and by the time you have imported it, it will be eye-wateringly expensive.

The JimSaw's speed seems to be of a fixed speed, and slightly slow for grinding 3450 rpm.
Also, it seems the blade can't tilt and can only be at 90 degrees to the table.
I can't work out either the inside or the external diametre of the disks.

To be honest, I am now getting cold feet at the whole idea of trying to accuraaly SAW mild steel plate on a circular saw. I now think the only hope will be an extra thin (1mm) ferrous cutting disk, turned at a very high RPM (e.g. 20,000rpm). I am happy to be prove wrong though.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by Roger B on 21/04/2021 17:10:17:

What thickness of steel are you planning to cut? I have seen 0.1mm mentioned.

Between 0.1mm and 1mm thick.

@Marting Kyte – Re Proxxon Micromot MBS 240/E Bandsaw, in my experience the cut of a band saw has a nasty habit of 'wandering'. Also are we sure that it can cut steel?

I thought that the cuttin speed for mild steel was 3 to 38m/min, whereas this machine "Blade speed adjustment from 180 to 330m/min"- which sound too fast, no?

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

It will cut steel, non ferrous and wood. Not with the same blade obviously.Diamond bands are available for cramics and glass. The table encorporates a square recess so a mitre fence can be employed. a fence can be used to keep sheet material square and the cut straight. Yes Bandsaws can wander but generally when feeding too fast.

It seems to me to meet the needs of the OP with the proviso that you are making one tool do many tasks so have to accept a certain amount of compromise. Blade speed according to the manual is 20 to 250m/min not 180-330 as stated by John.

And the table tilts to 45 deg

The manual is here

**LINK**

regards Martin

[Pete.Participant @pete-2]

Might be easier to cut them a couple of mm oversize with an angle grinder, finish them on a belt grinder with a fence set up at 90°

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

How about a Buehler Isomet?

Not sure how much they are new, but this firm are selling a refurbished 1000 for £1800, eek.

Anyone know of an affordable mid-range precision saw? Something more solid than a hobby Proxxon and less costly than professional laboratory gear.

Dave

 

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 21/04/2021 19:07:05

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 21/04/2021 19:06:15:

[…]

Anyone know of an affordable mid-range precision saw? Something more solid than a hobby Proxxon and less costly than professional laboratory gear.

Dave

.

Not really … but I have played with a Buehler Isomet, and they are very good !

MichaelG.

.

https://www.buehler.co.uk/sectioning.php

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 21/04/2021 19:49:39

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 21/04/2021 14:50:13:

@Peter Cook 6 – yes, an angle grinder with a 1mm cutting blade sounds good to me.
So far I can't find anything to turn it into anything resembling a circular saw.

Searching or "Angle grinder" seems to turn up machines that are for much larger thickness of grinding-cutting blade.

Ebay Item 174597008491 is the holder. Mount underneath a table of some sort with the blade sticking up through a slot.

How to make a Table Saw using Angle Grinder – YouTube gives the general idea – just a different blade.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

@Peter Cook 6 – nice try but no, I'm not going to mess about building a special table for an angle-grinder. I don't have time, nor the inclination. Talking of inclination I would quite like to be able to do 45° cutting.

@Martin Kyte – Hmm… On the up-side, band saws are a clever design because they safely pull the part directly down onto the table. It can also do "mitre sawing" by tilting the cutting table (although obviously your part would need to be secured from below properly and not held loose). Also it does claim that with that the correct blade (e.g. the Bi-metal blade??) it is "ideal for cutting all standard steel qualities, non-ferrous metals and stainless steel."

However I have always slightly dreaded band saws. Reasons:
1. I never know how tight the band should be.
2. I am always rather scared that I will break the blade. [And if the blade breaks whether the heck will it go?]
3. They are noisy.
4. They a way of the cutting blade itself wandering slightly even when the part is being moved in absolutely correctly.

I also found this reviewer on Amazon:

>>>
Proxxon no longer sell the bandsaw guides which are wearable parts, so for that reason alone you don't want to invest in this machine. I have after much use found the blades to last up to 2 hours at the most no matter what you are cutting – even milimetre thick pine. Considering they cost about £17 after postage it is an extremely expensive choice. I changed the tyres and the guides and found no gain in usability. I believe they are too thin for a bandsaw mechanism; they just fatigue and snap. There are no other choices for blades as proxxon have an atypical wheel size. The power of the machine for its price is woeful compared to other cheaper, machines. Proxxon aimed for a smaller, lighter machine and have sacrificed the power. As a man trying to make miniature furniture I have still found it completely useless. I can't operate at £17 an hour and a half and you certainly can't cut stock with it. There are much better table-top bandsaws for less.
>>>

Hmmmm….

J

[Gerhard NovakParticipant @gerhardnovak66893]

John,

I own a Proxxon FKS (the older sister of the FET) and I think it is one of the most useful tools in the workshop. It is true you cannot cut steel on this machine, but if it comes to brass or aluminium it is performing well. especially with the finer TCT blade (36 teeth) As said on the label you shouldn't push too hard as 200W is not too much power. Because of its precision and its very clean cuts I used this saw for all kinds of purposes, not only for making models. For example I did cut all my wood flooring on this saw.

What do I use for steel? An ordinary chop saw with a standard "cut it all" blade. The machine is an Evolution R210SMS (Screwfix). Blade diameter is 210mm, power is 1500W. Blade cost is approximately 20£ on the internet. I found some cheaper replacement blades from Erbauer for 12£, they were as good if not better, but they disappeared from the market. Probably Kingfisher was not happy and wants to sell their expensive blades (30£ at Screwfix).

40mm mild steel is not a problem at all. And you can cut wood after that and the blade will still perform. For me this was the decision not to buy an expensive metal only saw. If I can use the chop saw, even with a blade change from time to time, I can cut for a long time and be still much cheaper.

Safety advice: Clamp the work piece safely. There will be very hot metal chips flying around which can not only burn your skin but may also be a fire risk. Use proper goggles.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

@Gerhard Novak – The Evolution R210SMS looks like this, yes?

My central problem with this is that the blade is at 90° to the material that I want to push past it!
i.e. It may be great at cutting thick lumps of metal/wood etc, however due to its geometry it can't do longer cuts along steel plate etc. This is of little or no use to me.

Recap:
I am now planning to put an extra thin (e.g. 1mm thick) metal cutting disk into Mini Table Saw, cut slowly and take my chances. All the manufacturers say don't cut steel but too bad. Probably Proxxon or Rutland.

Either that or possibly use a mini band saw – except I can't find a super small one that is of good quality. Proxxon talks a big game but quality is suspect….

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 21/04/2021 21:10:52:

@Peter Cook 6 – nice try but no, I'm not going to mess about building a special table for an angle-grinder. I don't have time, nor the inclination. Talking of inclination I would quite like to be able to do 45° cutting.

OK your call. You are trying to do something very specialised, but don't want to put any effort into specialised tooling, or spend the sort of money  that commercial solutions need.

Good luck!!

Edited By Peter Cook 6 on 21/04/2021 23:08:11

[Stuart Munro 1Participant @stuartmunro1]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 21/04/2021 17:38:04:

Jim Byrnes's stuff certainly looks entirely wonderful. Good to see something better-made than Proxxon! It's certainly not cheap though, and by the time you have imported it, it will be eye-wateringly expensive.

The JimSaw's speed seems to be of a fixed speed, and slightly slow for grinding 3450 rpm.
Also, it seems the blade can't tilt and can only be at 90 degrees to the table.
I can't work out either the inside or the external diametre of the disks.

To be honest, I am now getting cold feet at the whole idea of trying to accuraaly SAW mild steel plate on a circular saw. I now think the only hope will be an extra thin (1mm) ferrous cutting disk, turned at a very high RPM (e.g. 20,000rpm). I am happy to be prove wrong though.

John,

Jim came back promptly confirming that his saw (with slitting blade) will cut thin sheets of aluminium and brass but not steel.

Stuart

[Stuart Munro 1Participant @stuartmunro1]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 21/04/2021 17:35:09:

Posted by Stuart Munro 1 on 21/04/2021 17:07:25:

John, and everyone else,

This is a real problem for beginners at engineering like me. Cutting strips of material be it brass, steel or aluminium is essential yet challenging. So I too have gone through all the permutations. A Floridian called Jim Byrnes makes what is probably the best wood modellers table saw on the planet (certainly not the best beer on the planet if he hails from the USA! to misquote an old advert). It comes with a range of optional blades which I suspect but would need to confirm, include metal cutting blades.

2 problems – its hyper expensive top import, like twice the cost of a Proxxon FET – and I'm not sure it cuts metal, just suspect it does, but will enquire.

If only there were a UK importer, I guess bulk buying would enable lower shipping costs which are half of the UK total for a 1 off!

Stuart

As I mentioned earlier maybe the little proxon bandaw would suit you better.

Proxxon Micromot MBS 240/E Bandsaw.

regards Martin

Martin,

I've gone to sheers for thin aly and brass, don't have a need to sheer steel sheet. With the aly and brass I then use a panel hammer to flatten it and put it into a vice betwen two bits of iron angle and file the edge the last half mil. Works for me.

Stuart

[Gerhard NovakParticipant @gerhardnovak66893]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 21/04/2021 22:57:06:

@Gerhard Novak – The Evolution R210SMS looks like this, yes?

Yes, this is the machine. For me it is mainly to cut of materials from bars, of course if you want cut from flat material or sheet material it is not the one.

Have you ever considered cutting by an oxygen cutter? (plasma cutter)

I think a thin cutting disc should be the easiest think to do.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

1. Yes, but I do need to cut mild steel & stainless steel!

2. Question: Have any of you ever tried fitting one of those thin black cutting disks (either aluminium oxide or corundum) into a mini table saw like the Proxxon FKS / FET Table Saw?
Does it work reasonably well? Or do the sparks melt the plastic that it's made from? ;^(

3. Btw, I have just heard back from Proxxon, and it turns out that there has been a cock-up.
The cutting speed of their "MICRO bandsaw MBS 240/E" is
"from 180 to 330 m/min"
And is not "20 – 250 m/min, infinitely adjustable"
And most websites (including Axmister Tools) have got it wrong!

So the range in speeds is much less than we thought. And surely those cutting speeds are way to fast for steel?!

4. Plasma cutters – I confess that I had never even heard of such a thing – they look too bulky and messy for a quasi domestic environment…. until such time as I get to have a dedicated workshop. Interesting-looking technology, though.

Edited By John Smith 47 on 22/04/2021 10:17:08

[Anonymous]

Posted by Peter Cook 6 on 21/04/2021 23:06:52:

…..but don't want to put any effort into specialised tooling, or spend the sort of money that commercial solutions need.

Spot on analysis.

Andrew

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

To cut sheet with a saw you ideally need at least two teeth in contact with the work at all times. The finest Swiss piercing saw blades available are 32 teeth per cm. so will just about do for your 0.1 mm. thickness but can only be used with a piercing saw frame. You could possibly adapt the blade holding on a scroll saw to take one but they are rather fragile. Watchmakers manage to cut accurately with them but it takes practice!

A pair of good quality watchmaker's tin snips should do the job, followed by a small hammer against a flat surface is necessary.

Russell

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Russel, not sure if you have that right, 32tpi is about 0.8mm, so a 0.1mm sheet will tend to catch unless the saw is tilted almost flat.

I think it may be worth referring back to John's earlier posts where the sort of thing he wanted to cut was 16mm wide strips and then cut those up into 13mm lengths possible with one edge at 45deg. Things like rage chop saws would just pick up the work and throw it across the workshop with your finger closley following.

Edited By JasonB on 22/04/2021 10:27:27

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