Small Arms models

[Axel BentellParticipant @axelbentell]

[Axel BentellParticipant @axelbentell]

Are models of small arms (sporting and martial) out of question in Model Engineer? I read something about not printing articles on gunsmithing in the Editors column way back…

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

Field guns, tanks and cannons (non working) are fine.

Rifles, pistols etc are not allowable.

Non working models are probably allowed on here but won’t appear in Model Engineer.

Please use common sense.

regards David

 

[Axel BentellParticipant @axelbentell]

Sir,

 

 What is the reasoning behind the rules?

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

Ask the UK government.

It is them that will complain if we publish information on making firearms.

regards David

[adyParticipant @ady]

There are plenty of USA sites on firearms, and their manufacture.

 

Youtube even has a micro-cannon series (SWMBO must have been out when he did some of his stuff…)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxHW-QGMuZ4

The second amendment on the right to bear arms and  the first amendment on the right to free speech have kept the US gun hobby quite buoyant.

 

The Democratic Peoples Republic of Britain has decided that we’re not allowed them things though.

[Axel BentellParticipant @axelbentell]

Sir, I see, so you really get complaints from the Home Office! Sad to hear that! Models of firearms have traditionally  allways been part of the gunmaking trade, both as a hobby and too have models to show or customers or when trying to find a job in a workshop…too bad UK government deprives the readers this part of our culture…

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

There was a bloke jailed for publishing info on fire arms in the UK, think he was locked up for 9 mths, its in another thread, also on the net someware. I’v got a model cannon, proof fired, made in England about 30yrs ago, when I got it I had to licence it. Now days fire arms arn’t licenced it the owner thats licenced, now the NZ Gov has no clue of the number of fire arms in the country.  Ian S C Read through the next thread “Artillery”

Edited By Ian S C on 31/08/2010 15:04:45

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

Had a long talk with a chap at the Torbay Steam Fair earlier this month.  His group do the military thing.  They had everything from WWI Lugers to current military equipment, his information is that if it don’t fire, it’s legal, no permit, nothin’.

That said, the rozzers may need to be shown that a firearm is none functional, but you could have a 1:1 scale AK17 with a permanently blocked barrel.  Again, common sense says that you don’t wave said weapon around in the local Barclays branch.

 

I don’t see ME people being interested in something that’s being used in Iraq, but pinfire revolvers or single shot ball and cap dueling pistols would make interesting projects, covering a wide range of processes, casting, heat treatment, rifling, & etc.

 

Funny, thinking of another thread, but the spellcheck didn’t like “rozzers”.

 

Ian 

[Keith LongParticipant @keithlong89920]

Before making replicas or models of any firearm make sure you KNOW what the law says about it. I am very involved with an amateur theatre and we have to be very careful when we hire weapons for use in a play. In many cases if the law thinks it looks real enough to be used for intimidation it WILL be treated as a firearm even if its a childs toy bought from a market stall. Also such “weapons” have to be kept under secure conditions, in our case a locked cupboard inside a locked room, and we have to have a nominated “armourer” who takes responsibility for the weapons at all times while they are outside the secure storage. In July this role fell to me for a production that invoved 3 muskets, 2 flint-lock pistols and 3 swords for good measure – all non practical but very realistic if youre looking down the wrong end.

Keith

[Richard ParsonsParticipant @richardparsons61721]

 

If it is the personal decision of the Editor (or the Editorial Committee) not to publish such information then that is OK, but if this decision has been made as a result of pressure being brought by the ‘Authorities’ then that is censorship which is contrary to one of the protocols in the European Charter of human rights. If threats were used under some act then that is downright illegal as Parliament never intended that the act be used in that way. People have been arrested for taking photographs in the street under this act!

In 2002 (the last year I drew books from a U.K. public library) books on gunsmithing and pictures of guns were freely available. You could also buy them from a well known Mail Order book seller who advertises in M.E and MEWS.  A 1/5 scale 0.577 Enfield dating to 1857-8 would have a bore of 0.115” which is 0.006” under 7/64”. Try drilling that hole about 7 to 8” deep.

The problem is when is a gun not a gun?  When is a piece of metal a gun? When it has a hole drilled up it? If that is the case every bit of tube is a gun! Where does this logic end? The pons asinorum is, “Is a quantity of metal ore a gun”? A Chief Constable once said publically that all model engineers spent their time re-activating de-activated weapons.  The answer to him is that well known soap powder ‘Brollix’

I suspect that this is all down to our ‘Managers’ in the Hume Office and the gnomes of Elfin Safety who for reasons of ‘Blame’ wish to suppress all knowledge of anything sharp, pointy, or goes bang. They would only allow us to have wax crayons in here as a pencil can be sharp!

[Axel BentellParticipant @axelbentell]

What I´m talking about is miniature models, usually in scales of one third or a quarter, sometimes in halfscale. Some build them to fire very low powered 2mm cartridges, but usually its a non firing replica in a “calibre” that it would be meaninglsess to try make munitions for.

 

Edited By David Clark 1 on 01/09/2010 11:03:40

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

Good idea, we will publish 1/4 scale drawings.

Oh dear somone just mutiplied the plans by four and built a working version.

Don’t think this is a good idea.

regards David

 

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

It is almost certainly illegal to publish plans, I believe we had to stop taking adverts for a model Gatling gun.

 

However, as editor, models of hand firearms will not be published in Model Engineer or Workshop.
Scale models (non working) of cannons and similar items may be considered.

For people who wish to model firearms, there are many full size gun magazines where plans may be available. If you wish to just make models, I suggest you like at a Military Modelling magazine of which there are several.

 

I will take a look at a shooting type magazine next time I am in the newsagents.

regards David

 

[Richard ParsonsParticipant @richardparsons61721]

 

There used to be a society called something like ‘The Miniature Gun Society’ it had a magazine and was something to do with one David ?Hughes or Hinds? -I met him on a little stand at a MEX at Wembley (that’s is how long ago it was)-. The problem of ‘it is illegal to publish X,Y or Z’ is something which would have to end up in the European Court. 

The thing about the Gatling gun was that if you actually made any part of it you would be breaking the law. It is only if the whole thing was finished and assembled, if it could not give fire, then it was not a firearm. I think the reason for stopping advertising, and it is one I would agree with was, that if someone made the confounded thing, the publishers of the advert could be done for ‘aiding and abetting’, though they would get away with it in the courts of appeal’. Neither the editor nor My Hobby Store is in the business of litigation so perhaps on this count we must let our lords and masters the ‘Population Managers’, (who often either ignore the law or twist it to suite their wishes or prejudices), get away with this one, unless someone has £½ millions to throw away on serial litigation and the European Court

 

[Richard ParsonsParticipant @richardparsons61721]

   

P.S I wanted to edit my last posting but could not. I wanted to add that: –

The calibre of a gun is the ratio of the barrel length to its bore and not its bore.

 

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

You had better modify Wikipedia then!

[Axel BentellParticipant @axelbentell]

By calibre is meant a bore size usually (or a specific type of munition for a chamber size), measured land to land in rifles, smooth bores are usally designated in Guages in America or in Bore sizes in the UK.

 

There are alot more to it than having a blueprint in any scale to make a working gun. I find it a remote risk that someone who wants a gun for illicit purposes would bother scaling it up from a miniature drawing! As a trained gunsmith I can say this with confidence! There are NO lack on info on how to make all sorts of firearms. And I can add to that, that my favourite books are often from the UK! 

 

But I fully respect the editors decision on this, its sad that my favouritebranch of the hobby is excluded, but that I can take; so much else to read in this wonderful mag!

Edited By Axel on 01/09/2010 15:32:05

[FunnyturnParticipant @funnyturn]

Amazing to think that 50+ years ago one of the workshop projects at prep school was to make and fire a miniature canon(bout 6” long). Now we hardly dare speak of such things…

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

I am sure any mechanical engineer, amateur or professional, could relatively easily build a potentially lethal gun if he or she chose, with or without a plan – it isn’t exactly rocket science. You can also download gun service manuals containing exploded drawings of mechanisms from many manufacturers’ websites, and that’s quite legal.

If you live in the UK and want to make a model gun, why not phone the firearms licensing department in your county police force HQ and ask their advice? Most firearms licensing officers are very friendly and helpful people. Don’t try asking at your local police station, as very few non-specialist officers understand firearms law.

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

My problem isn’t with David’s position on advertising scale firearms, he is being quite sensible given the situation, it’s that some in authority have the power to force people to cease what are quite legal actions.  The big problem is that it is extremely expensive to knock these over zealous idiots down.

 

The laws are quite clear, replica and model weapons are legal and require no certification if they cannot be fired or easily made to fire, nor are plans or adverts for such, but as is usual someone is going to exceed their authority and create problems for law abiding citizens, such as the management of ME or a legitimate collector of replica and model weapons.

 

Politicians don’t get enough heat on things like this and the previous government were particularly bad about stepping on people’s rights, perhaps this new crowd will see sense and start cleaning up the obvious abuses.  Not holding my breath though.

 

Ian 

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