Slipping drill chuck

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Hooray for POZIDRIVE. Just had a month with family in Oz and had to put in over 200 screws with Philips heads. Ruined about 8 drivers and chucked away loads of screws with mashed up heads. For large screws, they sell sunken square headed screws.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 12/08/2015 16:26:37:

Posidrive was originally invented by Phillips and the American screw company, it was just GKN who brought it to popularity.

Phillips is designed to cam out and prevent over-tightening (originally for assembling light alloy aircraft), Posidrive is designed to take a lot more torque.

In very rough and ready terms, abusing Phillips ruins your screwdriver, abusing Posidrive ruins the screw.

Not a lot of people know that

Neil

The best thing to do with a really stuck Phillips is to to get hold of some JIS screwdrivers that are really made of tool steel. Anyone who uses mine on wood screw knows that I might chop their hands off. Good ones are hard to find.

John

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[frank brownParticipant @frankbrown22225]

About 30 years ago ALL pozidrive screwdrivers had blue handles. Shame it has been discontinued.

Any one got an idea what the name is of the cross heads that are used for fixing plasterboard. The heads sometimes have a little "spot" on them but no diagonal striation (as pozidrive).. The free driver bit has a nice forged look to it (smooth flowing lines) and is smaller across the driving wings then pozidrive.

Frank

[davebParticipant @daveb17630]

I'm not a fan of Pozidrive, posssibly due to poor quality of screws and drivers. I recently had a woodwork project, needed about 300 100mm screws. I bought some hex head screws, came with free drive bit. Not one failure, drive bit still as new. Excellent product, a real improvement.

Dave.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 12/08/2015 17:25:13:

… it's Pozidriv

.

And still everyone is putting an e on the end

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

If you are looking for a really practical screwdriver head design that works and is strip resistant, as well as being dead simple, try the Robertson square socket / square drive system.

The bit actually holds on to the screw!

Similar system is Scrulox sold in USA but geometry on Robertson is slightly different and works better.

Try it and you will be a convert.

(I hate phillips and pozidriv system equally, though I have learned to work with both)

[Roger Provins 2Participant @rogerprovins2]

I have a Pozidriv driver bit that has diamond dust embedded in it. Grips amazingly well and has lasted undamaged for several years.

Edited By Roger Provins 2 on 12/08/2015 21:09:18

Edited By Roger Provins 2 on 12/08/2015 21:09:54

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Mention of the pro cam out design of the Phillips head makes me wonder what the proper design torque is for both Pozi and Phillips heads. I suspect that even those of us who feel they can supply objective evidence of being more careful than the average bear (gorrilla!) routinely over torque them when using a power driver. Certainly when properly leant on and given a pilot hole and smooth metal to come up on my 18V Makita is more than capable of snapping the head off a Screwfix 5 mm single thread gold screw. Mine is not the huskiest of the 18V drivers either having been bought around a decade ago in the second tranche of the Screwfix £110 for drill, case and two NiCads offers.

Given that end pressure pretty much defines the torque at which a Phillips will cam out how was this controlled in factory use to set tightening torque? On reflection the effect doesn't seem to be sufficiently repeatable to be useful without rediculous complexity compared to a simple torque limiter, shuch as a spring loaded ratchet clutch, inside the driver.

Concerning spelling I'd always thought that Pozidriv with the z in the middle and no e on the end was the GKN Nettlefolds trademark. I still have the plastic box and screwdriver (blue handle) from one of the sets also containing several sizes of screws used to introduce the Posidiv system to the UK DIY market. That has the little ® symbol after Pozidriv. Posidrive / Pozidrive seemed to be the generic terms used to avoid infringing the trademark. I've certainly bought packs of screws marked with the terminal e. Payless DIY being one supplier if memory serves me right.

Like Frank I wish folks would revert to the old (Stanley?) system of blue for Pozi, green for Phillips and red for flat as being so much easier to find the right weapon. OK I have separate drawers which helps but the gremlins do like to stir. Be nice if they bought back the Stanley ovoid semi cabinet handles too. Comfotable and good to grip when needing higher torques too.

Clive.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Clive Foster on 12/08/2015 22:43:10:

Concerning spelling I'd always thought that Pozidriv with the z in the middle and no e on the end was the GKN Nettlefolds trademark. I still have the plastic box and screwdriver (blue handle) from one of the sets also containing several sizes of screws used to introduce the Posidiv system to the UK DIY market. That has the little ® symbol after Pozidriv. Posidrive / Pozidrive seemed to be the generic terms used to avoid infringing the trademark. I've certainly bought packs of screws marked with the terminal e. Payless DIY being one supplier if memory serves me right.

.

Quite so Clive … which is why I mentioned it in the first place.

The GKN ones are [were?] very good, and, if you look at the patent you can see how much design work went into them. Many of the 'alternative spelling' versions are comparatively poorly made … John's Freudian reference to 'poxi' was about right.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: added link to patent.

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 12/08/2015 23:40:07

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Plasterboard screws are Trumpet Heads.

Martin

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I've found a standard that seems to work in wood and with a bit of care in tight raw plugs fixed very firmly- buy screws from Wicks and screwdirvers from b&q, the black and yellow handled ones – if that is still the colour they use.

John

=

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

Just for interest I've been driving a lot of screws this year using my new makita 18v drill with 4aH battery. About 200 4" pozidrive with one Pz3 DeWalt bit ,no trouble at all. Also 100 4" self drill roof fixings with hex head, no trouble, no pilot holes. The trumpet head plaster board screws have Philips heads, at least a philips bit fits very well.

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

+1 for Philips heads on plasterboard screws.

These depth stop versions aid the cam-out as well to prevent overdriving.

Neil's explanation was probably right originally but the problem with almost all posidriv woodscrews these days is that they are through hardened like nobodies business. It's not really necessary for 99% of applications IMHO but it certainly buggers up your bits if the driver slips and it's not harder than the screws.

Jon

[PeteParticipant @pete41194]

Hi Alan,

To answer your original question, some drill chucks are to be honest completely worthless. And those factory's are more than willing to sell us the worthless junk as long as we keep accepting it. There should be no need to buy drills with the 3 flats ground on them, or need to use any other methods to work around what is a manufactured fault in the OEM chuck you already have. I once owned a Black & Decker corded portable drill with a key type chuck. It was 100% impossible to get that chuck tight enough to prevent the drills from spinning and ruining the drills runout due to the scored shanks. Before I finally got fed up and binned the whole drill, I ruined far more in good drills than the whole machine was worth. Today I have an 18V Dewalt cordless with the keyless chuck, and a 12V Dewalt. They barely take any real effort to properly tighten either of there chucks, and I've yet to ever spin a drill in either of them. If your chuck won't hold a drill without spinning it, then it's a fault of the chuck. Don't waste your time and just replace the chuck or the whole drill with something decent. Good cutting tools aren't exactly cheap today, so it takes very few ruined drills before you could comfortably buy a very good quality drill chuck at the minimum.

If I were to buy any new corded or cordless drill now, and I knew I was properly tightening the drill chuck, and it spun any drill just once. It would be taken back for a full refund. I learned my lesson long ago and I'll not repeat the same mistake again.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Pete on 15/08/2015 11:11:11:

Hi Alan,

To answer your original question, some drill chucks are to be honest completely worthless. And those factory's are more than willing to sell us the worthless junk as long as we keep accepting it.

.

The strange thing being that Makita is generally regarded as one of the better manufacturers !!

New Makita chucks are listed here.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 15/08/2015 11:52:30

[PeteParticipant @pete41194]

Michael,

Yep I'd certainly agree with you about Makita. Only thing I can come up with is even the very best can turn out a faulty product sometimes. Since I don't know the exact drill, nor can I compare it with another to see if they both perform the same, then it's just a best guess right now.But it could also be just a poor design. One wouldn't think so, but even Henry Ford produced some lemons. I do have an Albrecht and 3 Glacern machine tools integral shank keyless chucks for my lathe and mill. But for a hand drill, those Dewalt keyless are pretty damned good. No where near what that Albrecht is of course, but far better than I thought they would be. I wouldn't think twice about buying another one.

Edited By Pete on 15/08/2015 12:43:07

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Pete on 15/08/2015 12:34:03:

Michael,

Yep I'd certainly agree with you about Makita. Only thing I can come up with is even the very best can turn out a faulty product sometimes.

.

Agreed, Pete

I have a lovely little Bosch [pro range] Drill/Screwdriver, which is ruined by the fact that the chuck doesn't run true. … Not too noticeable with a big drill in it, or a screwdriver bit, but distressingly obvious with a 2mm drill fitted.

MichaelG.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 12/08/2015 19:15:25:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 12/08/2015 17:25:13:

… it's Pozidriv

.

And still everyone is putting an e on the end

Posidriv is the trademarked term, posidirive has become the generic, like Hoover and hoover.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Roger Provins 2 on 12/08/2015 21:07:55:

I have a Pozidriv driver bit that has diamond dust embedded in it. Grips amazingly well and has lasted undamaged for several years.

Edited By Roger Provins 2 on 12/08/2015 21:09:18

Edited By Roger Provins 2 on 12/08/2015 21:09:54

Wickes used to include a little blue driver bit with two grooves on each face of the tip with their posi/supadrive screws. Although they look like anodised aluminium, they are excellent to use and last better than ordinary ones.

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 15/08/2015 13:38:17:

posidirive has become the generic, like Hoover and hoover.

.

… and is therefore to be despised.

MichaelG.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

"Hey mate! Could you pass me the cross-head style screwdriver that appears to broadly conform to the Phillips/GKN hi-torque standard, noting that I mean the straight drive variant and not the one that accepts a greater angular misalignment of said screwdriver, and appears to be compatible with screws manufactured to that standard, or at least sufficiently well enough to allow their insertion? I need to stir this paint!"

"Come again? Will this posidrive one do?"

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

'though it's actually the closeness to "passing-off" that I find objectionable.

MichaelG.

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 15/08/2015 17:06:27

[clogsParticipant @clogs]

Hi all, I'm prob to late for anyone to take any notice on this subject…..

I use my drill;s all day (batt and mains) having nearly 10 machines……as soon as I buy a new one I swop out the original chucks for the keyed type…..have a had a couple of chucks that I couldn't find a direct replacement keyed chuck but just took them to a hire shop and they found them…..

Have bought a couple of high quality drill sets I milled the flats on the ends myself ..I keep one set for the hand drills and the other for jobs on the lathe or mill…….unless it's something special I normally never use the chuck key anyway……just spin them by hand……..whilst on the subject of drill sets, De-Walt make a set EXTREME with a double ground point with cobalt I think, about £50…..these come with ground flats above 5mm…perfect for stainless and angle-iron great for battery drill etc…these are my go to drill for awkward jobs….

have fun…..clogs

Extreme

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 15/08/2015 17:04:07:

'though it's actually the closeness to "passing-off" that I find objectionable.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 15/08/2015 17:06:27

An eternal problem when something comes out of patent and becomes ubiquitous.

You end up with Blue Peter bowdlerisms.

Neil

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I find drilling steel with a pistol drill it is easy to jam the drill if you deviate from the angle you started drilling at, breakthrough is difficult to control and the drill will wind itself in and jam, I think most drills will have enough power and inertia to make a chuck slip in a jam up. Even when the drill doesn't stop there will be torque variations while drilling as the flutes try to cut with each wobble.

Mike

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