Simat 101 lathe for brass watch tools

[jon manParticipant @jonman64714]

Hi, i'd like to have a go at making some brass watch mainspring winders that range in size from 19mm outside diameter down to 5.3mm. The winders have a brass body with a steel plunger, i'm not a watchmaker i't's an hobby that i took up that's lead me here to start making my own tools.

Will a simat 101 be capable of making these, i can't find any info on what size round bar the chuck on the simat 101 will hold, are parts and tools available for old English mini lathes.

I've never used a lathe before, i've only used hand tools like tap and die set, bench drill etc, is the simat a good intro for a novice, what would expect to pay for for a well used simat 101.

Are there any simat 101 owners on the forum, what do you think of it and what should i look out for when i go to view it.

Thanks

[jon manParticipant @jonman64714]

[James AlfordParticipant @jamesalford67616]

I have a Flexispeed Meteor 2 which is the predecessor of the Simat. Mine was second hand and the main things on it were the casting that holds in the back-gear had cracked by being over-tightened. I understand that it is a common problem, but causes no difficulties in use: well, mine doesn't. The other thing that needed to be adjusted was the headstock bearing which is just a phospher bronze bush. Mine needed a slight tweak, but was nothing of concern. Other than that, everything was sound.

I am no great machinist, but it seems to be capable of working to tight tolerances, as long as everything is adjusted well, the tool is sharp and I don't try rushing.

Did you mean the largest or smallest stock that the chuck can hold? I have the original Flexispeed chuck, so could check the capacity this evening.

James.

[jon manParticipant @jonman64714]

James, the largest stock the chuck can hold, the largest diameter part is 19mm so i am assuming i will start with a 20mm round brass bar, will it hold a 20mm round bar.

Thanks

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

before you go to this effort, you might check out the 3D printed mainspring winders. If you have a 3D printer (or a mate with one) it will potentially save you a lot of time and money.

here on you tube and the original discussion here.

I have made some mainspring winders on my lathe (a standard chinese 7×14) and it was easy enough. The only thing you need real accuracy for is the arbor. In a Bergeon, the arbor has a hook built in. That's quite hard to machine at that scale.

Just before I discovered the 3D printed mainspring winder I bought a set of chinese winders – 10 of them (for about 50 quid). Naturally, none of them were the right size for the particular mainsprings I wanted to wind. All of these had no hook, just a friction fit arbor. This is also the approach I'd taken on the two I'd hand made and one worked OK and one didn't. I think you need to get the diameter of the arbor just right – a fraction too small and it won't wind a bit to big and there is the risk of breaking it – especially if it's an old old spring.

I've actually printed a winder for the watch I'm looking at at the moment, but this was very recently and I've not got round to trying them out yet – it's on my list. However, I have quite high hopes for them and it may be worth you investigating. They have some quite clever ideas behind them. Worth cheching out.

Iain

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Hello and welcome Jon;
Yes I do have a Simat 101, which I bought from new, though it's currently out of commission in a box under the bench.
I bought it with the standard 3 jaw scroll chuck, and a Pratt Burnard 4 jaw independent.

The through hole in the chuck for the 3 jaw is about 13.6mm, and 15.7mm for the 4 jaw. Clearly the through hole through the spindle is a lot smaller.
Yes you can hold a 20mm bar, and turn it OK, but be careful not to strain the jaws, or chip a tooth off the scroll chuck jaws; tailstock support would seem prudent.

Bill

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

When buying make sure the 3 jaw chuck has both sets of jaws, or reversible ones as you will want 'oustide jaws' for holding larger parts.

A small lathe like this is a good idea for learning on and safer. Far too many come on here, albeit usually wanting to make their motorbike bits, having bought a lathe with a 1 or 2 horse power motor not realising how dangerous it can be when you haven't a clue.

[jon manParticipant @jonman64714]

Thanks for the replies, when i go view it i'll make sure it as both sets of jaws or reversable ones, when i spoke to the seller he didn't know that much about it as it belonged to his dad, he did tell me it did have a 6mm chuck, i think this probably the tailstock chuck, from reading the info sheet link above it has a 0 morse taper.

I've googled 0 mt morse taper chucks to see if i can get one that can take a larger drill bit than 6mm, they don't seem to be available the part as a 6.6mm centre bore, is it possibe to turn down the taper on a 1mt or 2mt to fit 0 morse as the chuck on these are 13mm.

I'd seen the 3d printed winders but wasn't sure if they'd work that well, then i came across this write up on making a copy of the brass bergeon winders it as the dimensions of winders from 00 to 15, my attention went from printing a 3d one to making a brass winder like the one in this link  **LINK**

I'm going to view it tomorrow evening so i've been trying to swat up before i go, it's a big learning curve.

Thanks

 

 

 

 

Edited By jon man on 20/03/2023 13:08:09

Edited By jon man on 20/03/2023 13:24:42

[peak4Participant @peak4]

It's good to have the drill cuck and relevant arbor, since, whilst it's a 0MT, it's a truncated one.
As I recall, and I may be wrong, it's the wide end of the 0MT which is missing, so it's not just a case of getting a full length one and sawing off the thin end.

There's some info on Tony's site HERE
http://www.lathes.co.uk/flexy/page5.html

Bill

[Jim GuthrieParticipant @jimguthrie82658]

Posted by jon man on 20/03/2023 12:58:26:

I've googled 0 mt morse taper chucks to see if i can get one that can take a larger drill bit than 6mm, they don't seem to be available the part as a 6.6mm centre bore, is it possibe to turn down the taper on a 1mt or 2mt to fit 0 morse as the chuck on these are 13mm.

I don't think I would try a larger Jacobs style chuck on the Simat than the one provided. I have a Cowells 90ME which is the present day version of the Flexispeed/Simat family and I doubt if the short 0MT taper arbor could handle any drill appreciably larger than 6mm diameter without slipping.

Cowells supply short 0MT centres if you need them

http://www.cowells.com/pricelist.htm

and they also supply a 6mm capacity Jacobs style chuck complete with the short 0MT arbor so you might be able to get them to supply the arbor separately but I suspect that the Jacobs taper would be too small for a larger chuck.

 

Jim.

Edited By Jim Guthrie on 20/03/2023 17:15:38

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

You won't really be able to drill bigger than 6mm anyway but don't worry you will learn how to bore out bigger holes.

Having looked at the 3D print video I think it is all easily within the capabilities of a Simat to make a brass equivalent. The difficult operation would be the tiny hole for the spring holder but as a watchmaker you probably can take thatin your stride.
The Bergeon one is also doable with more fuss except perhaps for the long knurled body which will need practice first. I suggest a compromise here with a bit of rubber tube.

Interesting to see this area of work I am not familiar with.

[jon manParticipant @jonman64714]

I went yesterday to have a look at the lathe, it wasn't in working condition, i couldn't move the saddle, apron the handles would not turn, i tried to move the tailstock, it moved but not smooth, it looked really well used or abused.

It was a nice size not too big and not small it would have been perfect for me, glad i did my research before going on what to check when looking at one. i will keep my eyes peeled for one of a similar size in working condition that may just need a clean, i've started looking at the online auctions, something may come up.

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