Showman’s colour schemes.

[RooossoneParticipant @rooossone]

Hey all,

I am just reading through some companion sheets that came with my Showman's drawings and it talks about the Colour scheme, naturally this is talking about the main colour being good old Showman's maroon and then you can go fancy with the lining and signwriting from there.

I have several questions about this subject;

Is it 'The done thing' to stick with Maroon or is it accepted to use a more custom colour scheme?

What do people do when making the colour scheme, their colour scheme? How do they make their engine stick out from the others?

Also, quality of work aside, would a custom colour scheme have a negative effect on value should I (god forbid) decide to sell?

Edited By ross nesbitt on 11/05/2023 21:34:40

[RooossoneParticipant @rooossone]

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

Depends what you mean by a custom colour scheme, if you are thinking pearlescent pink and candy cane stripes it would certainly have a negative effect on value, changing the traditional maroon to an Oxford blue shouldn’t affect value too much.

[RooossoneParticipant @rooossone]

I should have clarified,

Oxford blue is EXACTLY the base colour I wanted to go with. No pinks here. that said, I did see a full sized engine painted in bright yellow….

Edited By ross nesbitt on 11/05/2023 23:16:33

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Ross, below are two photos of Showman's engines at Wheeting Steam Rally 2016.

As you can see, one is Maroon based and the other is Blue based.

Regards Nick.

[DalboyParticipant @dalboy]

Ascale engine in blue which does look good

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Provide the paint scheme is not too way out the price is more likely to be affected by how well the engine is painted and lined out rather than overall colour. A poorly painted Maroon one will fetch less than a good paint job on a blue one all other things being equal.

[RooossoneParticipant @rooossone]

Thank you all for your replies, always grateful!

Obviously still early days for me but I was thinking Oxford blue with gold and red lining and guilded lettering. The rims I have seen a nice Ivory/ white I would like to use.

Bottom line, I want to keep it classy and tasteful, in keeping with the time.

The value of the engine is a very secondary concern but felt It needed to be included as part of my line of questioning.

And now for a video link to the Banana coloured Showman's…..

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

To be honest the yellow doesn’t look too bad.

[RooossoneParticipant @rooossone]

I would love for there to be a steam engine colouring book so I can have a play around

…… As I typed that, I decided to have a quick google….. was not disappointed……

NTET – Steam Apprentice Club colouring book

Time to dig the crayons and sharpies out!

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

I had forgotten Tuby's blue Burrell. There is also Renown and Repulse in blue for the Fowler camp and Lightning Ii in green for Burrell.

So within reason, do it the colour you want. I think the mustard menace illustrated above is the height of bad taste.

Martin

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Didn't Burrell use Prussian Blue rather than Oxford? Nick's image looks like the darker Prussian blue.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I'm not that good at recognising the particular shades of blue, but I do think the one in my photo is darker. I don't think my photo just justice to the magnificent look of that engine when one is standing next too it, and while both engines look really good, I like the blue one best.

Regards Nick.

[RooossoneParticipant @rooossone]

Posted by Martin Johnson 1 on 12/05/2023 13:06:56:

I had forgotten Tuby's blue Burrell. There is also Renown and Repulse in blue for the Fowler camp and Lightning Ii in green for Burrell.

So within reason, do it the colour you want. I think the mustard menace illustrated above is the height of bad taste.

Martin

I just checked them both out on SteamScenes. They are both incredibly gorgeous! Pretty much what I'm looking at replicating essentially.

"The Mustard Menace" – I think you just found my new band name!!!

I guess the question for me later down the line is which blue!!!

[Diane CarneyModerator @dianecarney30678]

The two Fowlers, Renown and Repulse, were sister engines (consecutive numbers) and both worked for the same showman, John Murphy. There's an interesting story that involves them actually switching identities for a time (not uncommon practice in the day I suppose) but I believe they are now back 'the right way round'. Renown was ordered without the twisted brass and usual embellishments and had a hard life. It's preserved in that form today and to many people it's the most handsome showmans engine around, thanks to it's 'plainness'. The dark blue certainly suits them both well. I'd say it is a darker blue than the Burrell, Ex-Mayor. In all cases, though, I think being blue makes them memorable.
The yellow one did actually spend some of its working life in that livery! Hence why the owner has turned it out in yellow. (You can imagine, it has many nick-names, none of which I will write here!). I don't think anyone has a clue what its name is – it's just 'the yellow one' – hahah!

[RooossoneParticipant @rooossone]

Posted by Diane Carney on 16/05/2023 09:42:33:

The two Fowlers, Renown and Repulse, were sister engines (consecutive numbers) and both worked for the same showman, John Murphy. There's an interesting story that involves them actually switching identities for a time (not uncommon practice in the day I suppose) but I believe they are now back 'the right way round'. Renown was ordered without the twisted brass and usual embellishments and had a hard life. It's preserved in that form today and to many people it's the most handsome showmans engine around, thanks to it's 'plainness'. The dark blue certainly suits them both well. I'd say it is a darker blue than the Burrell, Ex-Mayor. In all cases, though, I think being blue makes them memorable.
The yellow one did actually spend some of its working life in that livery! Hence why the owner has turned it out in yellow. (You can imagine, it has many nick-names, none of which I will write here!). I don't think anyone has a clue what its name is – it's just 'the yellow one' – hahah!

That was a very interesting anecdote, thank you for sharing. I have recently discovered Old Glory magazines thanks to our friend Vic so I am currently discovering lots about the old world!

And I appreciate the reassurances on colour scheme. It certainly gives me confidence moving forward. I may even experiment with something like this… Candy Pearl Midnight Blue Over Black. It suits the name I have in mind for the engine, "Moonshine".

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

There was a 6" Mac showmans painted in Subaru metalic blue at one time, though they went for yellow wheels not gold!

Edited By JasonB on 16/05/2023 10:16:45

[RooossoneParticipant @rooossone]

Posted by JasonB on 16/05/2023 10:14:41:

There was a 6" Mac showmans painted in Subaru metalic blue at one time, though they went for yellow wheels not gold!

Edited By JasonB on 16/05/2023 10:16:45

That's nice and all but I think the blue is a bit too much. I think darker and deeper is more tasteful in this context. It is all purely subjective at the end of the day really. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to offend with my colour choices

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Rooossone on 16/05/2023 10:05:31:

Posted by Diane Carney on 16/05/2023 09:42:33:

…

…

And I appreciate the reassurances on colour scheme. It certainly gives me confidence moving forward. I may even experiment …

No disrespect intended, but do you have paint skills?

I don't, and would need a lot of practice before tackling a decorative engine, if ever! My talents don't include patient preparation, or reliable brush and spray work. Not completely incompetent because I've painted some moderately satisfactory arty fruit-in-bowl and landscapes in Acrylic on an easel. The experience was misleading: I thought painting models would be easy in comparison, and soon found otherwise.

Small errors like runs, overpainting, wobbly lines, smudges, slight matt patches in glossy sections and vice versa, colour shades, and too thick layering all catch the eye on models. Not uncommon at exhibitions to see the look of first-class engineering objects spoiled by tiny flaws in the paintwork. The builders have my sympathy; nothing I make is of exhibition standard – it's all difficult, and paint seems to be completely beyond me!

If you don't already have the skills, I advise lots of practice before tackling the engine. There's a book called 'How (Not) to Paint a Locomotive' that might help.

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

This more up your street Dave?

[RooossoneParticipant @rooossone]

No disrespect taken sir,

I have painted bikes and things over the years but I wouldn't say I have the hands of an artist. For that reason I highly doubt I will allow myself to do the paintwork. I do have friends that paint cars for a living so I will likely tap them up to help me out.

As for the decorative lining and signwriting… I will most certainly be getting a local professional in for. That said I may try a signwirting course (Joby Carter comes to mind), But the bottom line is….

I DO NOT TRUST MYSELF WITH A PAINTBRUSH!!!

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

I think blue already has the nod, but I can tell you that Burrell maroon is a bitch of a colour to work with as it is semi transparent. So lots of coats needed meaning more chances of cock ups. I am a highly skilled "rub it down and start againer".

If you can get access to a proper spray booth and gear, that is well over half the battle IMHO.

Good luck,

Martin

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by JasonB on 16/05/2023 11:13:22:

This more up your street Dave?

Delightfully simple. Even so I couldn't guarantee to make it look right!

[Anonymous]

Posted by Martin Johnson 1 on 16/05/2023 13:02:07:

…Burrell maroon is a bitch of a colour to work with as it is semi transparent…

That's useful to know; I think I'll cross it off my list!

Andrew

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

These vehicles' commercial days were largely over before colour photography had become commonplace, so most surviving pictures are monochrome; making accurate representation difficult.

What some show is that although twisted olivers and other fancy bits were more or less standard, some engines did not have much signwriting, and occasionally none, along the eaves at all.

.

I ask this though…

… What would be the reaction to someone proudly presenting a full-size or miniature showman's road-locomotive, all proper colours, brass all agleam, owner's name emblazoned along the eaves; but with no canopy lamps. Heresy? Inquisitorial questions like, "When did you last see your bulbs?" No! Realism!

It was rarely or never done in working days, in fact most owners seemed not even to illuminate the controls and gauges electrically: expecting their enginemen to work at night by the dim light of a hurricane-lantern.

There were two reasons. Firstly a large ride, especially a heavy scenic one, needed as many Watts as the engine and dynamo could give it. Secondly it was the ride that earned the money, not the engine. Though a vital part of the set, the engine was usually tucked out of the way; just as is the modern, diesel-engined, towing / power-pack tractor. Not in front because the ride needs clear public visibility and access. So no clarted with watts-wasting, pretty lights.

The Showman's Road Locomotive was intended to be a very impressive tractor out on the road, but merely a mobile generator on the show-ground.

.

I think when we try to replicate in miniature, or preserve in full-size, sometimes we might step back a little from GDSF romance and think what these machines were for, how they were used, and of the conditions their crews endured. Rightly we present them finished in sales, even trade-exhibition, standard; and even more rightly look after them far better than some of the original owners did; but it is rather sobering to read some of the autobiographies by former road and rail steam-engine men.

Indeed, the photograph that sent me in pursuit of my own far-too-extended Hindley wagon project, and parts of the manufacturer's advertising material, form more a study of Edwardian society, than a technical archive.

Oh, at least E.S. Hindley & Sons were kind enough to fit a small paraffin-lamp to illuminate the gauge-glass. It was probably more effective at that, than their larger headlamp versions were at lighting the road ahead. A canopy over the crew though? An optional extra….. .

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