Shine a Light

[Anonymous]

Hi Peter,

 

I’m always a little cynical when the teaching profession demands that child assessments are left to them, as they know best. As you have discovered they know nothing of the sort.

 

Performance at school is no indicator of success in life. A point I made rather forcefully to my form master in the sixth form when he supported my chemistry teacher, who had suggested I didn’t bother applying to university, as she didn’t think I was up to it. Had I wanted to read chemistry I might have listened, but since she knew diddly squat about electronics I ignored her advice.

 

One of the things King’s College is known for is it’s music and particularly the chapel choir. While I have been in chapel, in the choir stools, I only listened, as I can’t sing for toffee.

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Hi Chaps,

I’m becoming quite impressed that since its inception, this thread has already reached 39 postings. Doesn’t this indicate that we have so much more to tell?

Under my bushel, there exists a story or two. Some of which confirm what has already been said by others in this thread, especially by Andrew and Peter. In particular, the questionable assessment methods employed to grade us as we headed into adulthood.

In their judgment, and I can gloat now Andrew, my wonderful parents bought and allowed me to read the Beano, and the Dandy, and the Hotspur, and the Rover. Had I not been exposed to Desperate Dan and Alf Tupper, then I feel sure that I would have remained totally illiterate.

Doing things properly appears to have become a prominent aim for me too, although I was never aware at what stage this happened. For example, I failed the Eleven Plus quite nicely and was sent to the local Sec. Mod., where I got 9% for history, and about the same for religious instruction. My English results were abysmally low, while maths (or was it arithmetic?) was being taught by a chap who read to us from Fu Manchu comics hidden inside a text book. This latter act was for his own protection not ours, just in case the headmaster appeared suddenly from nowhere.

In an apprentice’s assessment meeting the toolroom foreman, looking straight at me, declared to all present that – “You will never be a toolmaker!”. Supposedly, it mattered little to him that I had joined the company with the strong desire to become a draughtsman.

Perhaps I wasn’t prepared to listen either Andrew, because, having moved on to fresh fields (putting in about 15 years of part-time study along the way), I was soon to be promoted to `Scientist’, in a laboratory full of university graduates. Between the 70’s and 90’s, apart from half building a skeleton clock, developing a medical infusion pump and several other gadgets, much of my spare time was spent lecturing to mature-age students at the local technical college. For some forty years, and while operating my own consultancy, report-writing was high on the list of tasks. I reckon my English ain’t too bad.

And, as for the Eleven Plus, I eventually qualified in two institutes, reaching the status of Fellow in both.

Yes Andrew, there’s a lot of ego-driven diddly squat.

“Keep um cumin, lads!”

Sam

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Those that can,  do,   those that cannot,   teach  and those that cannot teach become……?……set case studies, because members of the LEA staff etc. and tell others what they should be doing.

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 26/09/2010 10:51:39:

Sid,

 

So which part of Canada are you in? After all it’s a big country. One of my fathers friends, from his apprenticeship days, emigrated to Canada, probably about 55 years ago. Montreal I think; he went to work for De Havilland Canada. Probably a bit late for me to emigrate now; and how would I ship several tons of machinery over! I gather than machine tools are relatively scarce on the secondhand market in Canada, at least compared to the USA?

 

 Sorry for the tardy response, Andrew – I took off for a week’s short vacation,  touring around and visiting relatives.

 

 I live in Mississauga, Ontario … just next door to Toronto. De-Havilland Canada was in Toronto. It was later sold to Boeing and then to Bombardier. That friend of your father’s could even  have been my father-in-law, who emigrated form the UK and went to work at DHC. That would be in the early/mid fifties.

 

Just about everything in Canada, used or new is scarce compared to the US – if only because of the relative population sizes – but used machine tools are around to be had without too much trouble. You may have to wait a while if you are looking for a specific machine though. The Toronto and Southern Ontario area in particular has a very active CraigsList tool-wise and another similar online buy/sell called Kijiji.

 

 

 

 

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

I have to say that although I had the grammar school education, I don’t think I benefited from it. Probably couldn’t see the reason why, wasn’t interested in most subjects, and probably lazy. So I left school at 16.

 

It was recommended by the Schools Careers Officer (wrong title, can’t remember the correct one) who recommended in order: CEGB, YEB (our local electricity board), and finally the GPO, on the basis that the CEGB offered the best training whilst the GPO offered very good but narrow training. The YEB wouldn’t have me, CEGB said yes as long as I got 4 ‘O’ levels (I got 3!) and the GPO didn’t care about ‘O’ levels as they had their own entrance examination and training scheme. So I ended up as an apprentice telecomm technician.

 

The SCO was proved dead right in that I ended up working on telephone exchanges, and that’s all I knew. There is, however, quite a lot of other stuff in the telecomm world: power, line plant – everything from copper wires in the ground to microwaves and later optical, international communications, telex etc. None of which I know much about. As a result, all of my training, both at Technical College and in house was purely based around exchanges, however, in later years I was able to self-teach about transistor and CMOS design and usage producing a few one-off designs along the way.

 

But, one of my colleagues about 25 years ago hit the nail smack dead centre with an off-the-cuff remark: “You learn now because you want to, and not because someone tells you to do it!”  I’ve never forgotten that.

 

Regards,

 

ten0rman

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Peter we seem to have followed a parallel course!

I was lucky in that for my secondary education I chose a newly built technical school which offered, in addition to the usual subjects, engineering workshop practice & technology, engineering drawing (even plumbing for a few terms !) some woodwork, history of architecture etc. The engineering workshop contained new Colchester, Harrison and Kerry lathes and I was smitten as soon as I walked in the door!

Like you I joined the old GPO as a trainee technician and progressed through long distance transmission, external planning, telex, customer systems etc. All necessary training provided by the firm. It was a great job, full of variety, and I worked with some great people. As you rightly say the core knowledge was provided by the company but the detail you added in as you needed it and because you wanted to. The GPO evolved through the Post Office to BT and then kept re-inventing and reorganising itself   (sometimes painfully!) to deal with new times. In my experience BT engineers were prepared to have a go at most things ( both on and off the job) and enjoyed seeking the solutions to problems.

If I had my time again ( oh dear that does sound old!)  I would chose the same path – sadly this is not open to young folk these days. We were fortunate indeed.

Finally, having spent a working life in electronics and management, I am now able to return to explore the excitement generated all those years ago by my first sight of the engineering workshop.    Good isn’t it!

 

Regards

 Norman

[Anonymous]

Sid,

I sent you a PM.

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

Posted by NJH on 03/10/2010 19:33:39:

I was lucky in that for my secondary education I chose a newly built technical school which offered, in addition to the usual subjects, engineering workshop practice & technology, engineering drawing (even plumbing for a few terms !) some woodwork, history of architecture etc. The engineering workshop contained new Colchester, Harrison and Kerry lathes and I was smitten as soon as I walked in the door!

 

Norman, it looks as though you chose pretty much what I did at school as well, and although friends went down the GPO route, I didn’t. But I did appreciate what we had there, and went on to have some post-school engineering training as well, and although I didn’t do a full apprenticeship, I actually got some GCE qualifications in some of this stuff from school. The secondary education alternative, which my father rather wanted me to do, was to have a very minor private education, but I took one look at where he was trying to send me and refused point-blank to go there. I haven’t regretted it for a moment.

 

Since the nanny-state H&S boys came along, none of this useful stuff happens any more in schools (D&T is a bit of a joke), and they have got rid of most of the equipment. And the only people who are interested in it – and can to an extent afford to do purchase it – are slightly less young people like us who actually appreciate what can be done with it. Somewhat perverse, really, isn’t it? Does it bode well for the future? No. But since we are, as a country, rapidly heading towards ‘tourist museum’ status then it hardly really matters, does it?

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Norman,

The only lathe I got to see all those years ago was a Portas (3½”?). Craftwork was taught by the art teacher. I suppose there is actually a connection there. It wasn’t until I built a 00 gauge model railway and realised that one loco needed new wheels that I started on the Model Engineering caper.

 

You are quite correct in that most of my colleagues seemed able to, and capable of, turning their hand to just about anything. Which in turn led to a very useful situation when I could usually find someone who knew something about whatever problem I was having. And best of all, advice and info was freely given, a bit like these boards really. And that is something I still miss after 15 years of early retirement.

 

Like you, I think I was lucky in having the job I did, and yes I would do it again, but with one difference – with the confidence I now have, I would do a lot more off-the-cuff stuff. Unfortunately though, those days are long gone and although I do sometimes feel somewhat sad that my skills are now obsolete, today’s telecomm world is much better, I mean, could you imagine tone dialling into Strowger? Or even TXE2. And let’s face it, with the routing controls they now have, the days of running into congestion have also long gone.

 

Ok, end of reminiscing, other than to say: I had a good life, a good job, and now a decent pension, something which I cannot see my children getting.

 

Actually there is just one thing extra I will say, and this may not necessarily be applicable to ex-BT people, so other thoughts would be welcome. As Norman and I have said, we were capable of doing a wide variety of jobs,  not just at work, but in the wider field as well. I have two sons, one is 34 and a teacher, whilst the other is 21 having just got a Physics degree. Neither seem to have the same wide-ranging skill base that I had at the same age. Is this because people are becoming more specialized and hence more narrow in their abilities? Or is there something else, eg “stuff” in general is becoming more complex such that any one individual just cannot hope to become conversant with anything outside their training?  

 

Regards,

 

Peter G. Shaw

[Anonymous]

Wow, some interesting stories here guys. As the football manager said, ‘the boys done good’.

 

To pick up on a few of the points made. I’m certainly not going to be retiring with a good pension. I’ve missed the generation that did so. My grandfather didn’t retire until 70, and I expect I will be too. Mind you he bought his first house at 60, so he had to keep working. I do save a bit towards a pension, but I am starting to spend a bit too. At the beginning of the year I underwent a potentially life changing operation on my eyes. If it hadn’t worked I’d have probably lost my sight. That made me rethink a few things. Like I’m not getting any younger, and I wouldn’t want to be twenty years older and thinking, I wish I had done this, or that. I’ve started this process by rushing out and buying a share in an open class glider with an engine, if that isn’t an oxymoron.

 

We had a metalwork shop at school, but, thinking back it was not terribly well equipped. All new kit, just not a good range. There were three lathes (Boxfords), only one screwcutting, and only the sixth form were allowed to use that. There were two pillar drills and a shaper. There were definitely no milling machines and not a great range of accessories, as I remember. I guess the powers that be thought it was a bit down market to have a metalwork shop in a grammer school. It did have a really good town gas forge and lots of facilities for enamelling, so I suppose they justified it on the grounds of it being useful for arty things. And I don’t think the metalwork teacher actually liked kids. He just lurked in the back of the room and did his own projects.

 

It’s an interesting point about the apparent lack of skills these days. I think there are several reasons. One, there is no doubt some things are more complex. Just about anybody with a smattering of technical knowledge could understand the idea of a Strowger exchange. But to understand the principles behind the modern mobile phone you need a pretty good understanding of number theory and signal processing. The same is true of cars. Years ago anybody could do a quick de-coke on the drive. These days even the professionals can’t do much more than plug a computer in and look at the diagnostic output. However, I think a more serious problem is that the man in the street simply doesn’t know, or care, about technology any more. If it breaks he buys another one, or calls a man out. Some years ago I put an ad in the local village magazine offering to make bits to help mend appliances and the like. I didn’t get a single response in a whole year. I reached the conclusion that either people knew how to mend it, and did so themselves, or they were so lacking in knowledge that they had no idea, and just threw it away.
 

Right, that’s enough rambling for one night!

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 04/10/2010 23:24:33:

I reached the conclusion that either people knew how to mend it, and did so themselves, or they were so lacking in knowledge that they had no idea, and just threw it away.

 

This might be a bit of a rant, I’m afraid…

 

Oh, definitely the latter. But it’s not just the hi-tech stuff; I would have said that it was perfectly acceptable for them not to altogether understand that. A much larger problem with the lack of any sort of sensible craft options available in schools now means that we have several generations of kids where if you ask them to put up a shelf, all they do is stare at you blankly. And then they call a man out to do it, because it either doesn’t occur to them that they could do it themselves, or they’ve been so frightened by the H&S wombats and stupid clauses in their house insurance that they think that this is clearly the right thing to do anyway, just in case something gets damaged, and there’s no pay-out.

 

But this throw-away culture is getting somewhat out of hand. There are now a lot of manufacturers who won’t supply spare parts for their products, or if they do, they charge astronomical amounts of money for them. Mainly because they don’t want you repairing their stuff – it cuts down on new sales. But sometimes it’s not even their fault – a lot of electronic components go out of date faster than you can blink – so if you want to use them in a product you have to do a one-time buy, and when you’ve used them all – well, it’s a redesign. And keeping any for spares? The bean-counters don’t like that idea very much at all. And I could go on, and on, and on…

 

So there’s now a bunch of us here, all old enough to remember when it wasn’t like this – but hey, isn’t modern technology wonderful? We’ve started our own virtual support and counselling group! 

 

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

It’s sad to see these skills disappearing, but a pleasure to be an observer of modern technology.

 

Sam

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I think some of the skills that are disappearing are due to this throw away trend. In a previous employment I used to repair a wide range of stuff from a tap washer to heavy  static plant. Spare units like gear reducers and pumps and the like used to be refurbished in the workshop during times when plant maintenance was at a minimum. Over the years the smaller stuff used to get slung, because the spare parts would cost more than a new unit. When I say smaller stuff I mean about the size of an average car engine and downwards. With some of the units that were repaired, you would have to get a repair kit, which would included spare parts that were not needed, so you would get a collection of spare parts that were slung because they were no use for anything else. What a waste.

Regards Nick

[NJHParticipant @njh]

 Hi again Sam

 

Do I take it that you are having a problem sourcing clock oil? If so it is readily available in this country from Meadows & Passmore  at:  http://www.m-p.co.uk/  and the specific item at:- http://www.medmaw.com/cgi-bin/medmaw/medmaw.cgi

 

Pretty much anything you might need for clockmaking is available and they do say that they post regularly  to all you guys down there standing on your heads!  

(Although the postal charges might be a bit of a killer)

 

All the best

 

Norman

 

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Hi John S,

I went to Brighton Uni – as a Security Officer!  Something I did as a fill-in to retirement after being made redundant from a much better job.

John.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

My Grandads – one was a submariner/radio/sonar operator who ended up teaching radar at Cranfield, the other was a coppersmith in the RAF. Grampie’s postings meant Dad never got a real education, though he was in the Royal Engineers!He ended up taking on my Grandfather’s business – selling and renting out electrical goods, doing all the repairs himself.

 

Mum was bright -after passing the 11-plus she was made to leave school, while her brother stayed on to the secondary modern!

 

But with parents both of whom encouraged (tolerated) experimentation I always wanted to go into engineering – my ambition was to work at the RAE working out why planes crashed (perhaps this was around the time of Kegworth?).

 

Then I had a brilliant biology teacher (yes there are good teachers – I’ve had several, as well as the worst…) and ended up becoming an ecologist!

 

So I’m a Chartered Environmentalist now, for my sins – I don’t get the salaries they give chartered engineers! And I’m finally giving myself the chance to bash metal.

 

 

Neil

[Author]

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